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Decker, a platform that builds on the legacy of Hypercard and classic macOS

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Re: Decker, a platform that builds on the legacy of Hypercard and classic macOS

#81

Post by simondotau »

pjmlp wrote: post #78
simondotau wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is fair, if FileMaker existed in a vacuum. The inflation-adjusted cost of software and hardware has consistently trended downwards over the past 40 years.

As someone that pays for commercial software, only if you are talking about race to the bottom on mobile stores. A proper PC or Apple device, proper being the keyword, not throwaway gear under 500 €, is as expensive as always, when buying hardware with 5 to 10 years expected lifetime in a professional setting.

In terms of software, commercial quality software is now often free and/or open source. Maybe the best application software is still expensive, but free software is better than anything that existed a two decades ago let alone four decades. The only people deploying Windows Server these days are doing so for legacy reasons, not by choice.

In terms of hardware, a Macintosh Plus vs a MacBook Neo. The latter is many orders of magnitude superior in any metric you could possibly imagine, and it's 1/10th the price in real dollars. Even if you insist on a "serious" laptop it's still 1/4th the price.

  Year Example                  Price   Real 2026
  ---- ----------------------- -------- ----------
  1986 Compaq Portable II (286)  $3,500   $10,700
  1996 Dell/Gateway Pentium 166  $2,500    $5,300
  2006 Dell XPS (Core 2 Duo)     $2,200    $3,650
  2016 Dell XPS 15               $1,500    $2,100
  2026 Dell XPS 14/16            $2,000    $2,000

  Year Example                  Price   Real 2026
  ---- ----------------------- -------- ----------
  1986 Macintosh Plus            $2,599    $7,900
  1996 Power Macintosh 7200      $2,000    $4,300
  2006 20" iMac                  $1,699    $2,800
  2016 13" MacBook Pro           $1,699    $2,360
  2026 14" MacBook Pro (M5)      $1,999    $2,000

  Year Example                  Price   Real 2026
  ---- ----------------------- -------- ----------
  1986 Novell NetWare            $3,000    $9,100
  1996 Windows NT Server 4.0     $1,100    $2,400
  2006 Windows Server 2003       $1,000    $1,660
  2016 Windows Server 2016         $900    $1,250
  2026 Linux                         $0        $0

  Year Example                  Price   Real 2026
  ---- ----------------------- -------- ----------
  1986 Early pro NLE systems    $50,000  $152,000
  1996 Adobe Premiere 4.2          $800    $1,700
  2006 Final Cut Pro             $1,000    $1,660
  2016 Final Cut Pro X             $300      $420
  2026 Da Vinci Resolve              $0        $0
And all of these tables are actually unfair because the newer stuff is way, way, way, way better than any of the older stuff. If we were being fair, the old computers should be absolute top-of-the-line models and the 2016/2026 models should be a Raspberry Pi.

Re: Decker, a platform that builds on the legacy of Hypercard and classic macOS

#82

Post by pjmlp »

simondotau wrote: post #81
pjmlp wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone that pays for commercial software, only if you are talking about race to the bottom on mobile stores. A proper PC or Apple device, proper being the keyword, not throwaway gear under 500 €, is as expensive as always, when buying hardware with 5 to 10 years expected lifetime in a professional setting.

In terms of software, commercial quality software is now often free and/or open source. Maybe the best application software is still expensive, but free software is better than anything that existed a two decades ago let alone four decades. The only people deploying Windows Server these days are doing so for legacy reasons, not by choice. In terms of hardware, a Macintosh Plus vs a MacBook Neo. The latter is many ord…

A Macintosh Plus was only affordable under university student discounts in Portugal, and hardly seen anywhere.

MacBook Neo is a nothing to talk about with its 8 GB and phone motherboard, I specifically mentioned "A proper PC or Apple device, proper being the keyword, not throwaway gear under 500 €, is as expensive as always, when buying hardware with 5 to 10 years expected lifetime in a professional setting."

Neo isn't such device, my current hardware has 32 GB.

Your examples miss the relation of salaries, life cost and related percentage to hardware prices, per country.

Re: Decker, a platform that builds on the legacy of Hypercard and classic macOS

#83

Post by simondotau »

pjmlp wrote: post #82
simondotau wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In terms of software, commercial quality software is now often free and/or open source. Maybe the best application software is still expensive, but free software is better than anything that existed a two decades ago let alone four decades. The only people deploying Windows Server these days are doing so for legacy reasons, not by choice. In terms of hardware, a Macintosh Plus vs a MacBook Neo. The latter is many ord…

A Macintosh Plus was only affordable under university student discounts in Portugal, and hardly seen anywhere. MacBook Neo is a nothing to talk about with its 8 GB and phone motherboard, I specifically mentioned "A proper PC or Apple device, proper being the keyword, not throwaway gear under 500 €, is as expensive as always, when buying hardware with 5 to 10 years expected lifetime in a professional setting." Neo isn…

> A Macintosh Plus was only affordable ...

Exactly my point. Thank you. Computers are so much more affordable now. The remainder of your post seems to be about me mentioning the Neo as an extreme case despite me ultimately ceding to your arbitrary criteria and selecting the M5 MacBook Pro as the point of comparison.

Again, comparing it to a Mac Plus or a 286, or a Pentium 166. Are we even being serious here?

> Neo isn't such device

Absolutely it is, and then some. You're just spoiled by your fancy 32 GB computer because — again, proving my point about affordability — computers are incredibly cheap now and they keep getting cheaper in real terms.

Calling the Neo "throwaway" is an incredibly privileged take. There's no reason to expect it won't have a comparable lifespan to any of the computers listed. It has a fantastic keyboard, comparable to the best laptop keyboards. If you don't agree, that's probably because you don't like laptop keyboards. So don't get a laptop.

You did have one valid point though, the Neo does have a small motherboard. That's unforgivable.

Re: Decker, a platform that builds on the legacy of Hypercard and classic macOS

#84

Post by gglitch »

mbreese wrote: post #21

Is there a place these days for interfaces like this? I’m thinking about self contained applications like HyperCard stacks, but also FileMaker databases or even Access databases where we had interfaces linked to a database all as a self contained application. These tools with scripting languages powered a ton of small business applications. I know a lab I worked with was still using FileMaker databases up until a few…

I don't think anyone you're calling a "shop" would do anything business-critical with it, but fwiw, Tiddlywiki fits in this category.

https://tiddlywiki.com/

Re: Decker, a platform that builds on the legacy of Hypercard and classic macOS

#85

Post by 2b3a51 »

mempko wrote: post #46

Wait, you are telling me people vibe created apps before LLMs? /s This is beautiful. I loved Hypercard when I was a kid. If they added networking to it, it would have been superior to web browsers! Please people, have some joy and stop taking people down a peg for vibe coding apps. Let people have fun again for once.

Vibe away. Vibe code like a teenager with leather trousers and a top with zips (punk days).

Just don't put it in production or in a work flow where there could be consequences if (randomly) nondeterministic.

Re: Decker, a platform that builds on the legacy of Hypercard and classic macOS

#86

Post by TimTheTinker »

temp0826 wrote: post #44
giantfrog wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Fallout analogy is perfect. Limitation stimulates imagination. I think that’s part of why essentially limitless AI models produce things that are so devoid of it.

Constraints really breed creativity. The demoscene is probably my favorite example of it.

This is why the perpetual obsession with creating new genres in university art departments is so dumb. One told a prospective student (my wife's friend) "we don't do beautiful here" as if that signals erudition.

Real beauty comes from expressing something coherent within constraints such that the constraints become the means of expression.

Re: Decker, a platform that builds on the legacy of Hypercard and classic macOS

#87

Post by chrisweekly »

swiftcoder wrote: post #29
chrisweekly wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

SQLite seems to me like it fits the bill.

SQLite doesn’t have a built-in user interface. The value of something like FileMaker isn’t the underlying storage mechanism, it’s the WYSIWYG user interface building that lets you quickly build custom apps around it

(sigh) I was replying to:

>"If you’re a small shop and have a need for a little database, what do you use?"

not the rest of the comment. mea culpa for not quoting that specific Q.

Edit: as for the rest of it, I love using Obsidian for ~everything. It's not a database, but it does support queries and rendering of tabular data, which meets all my admittedly modest needs.

(if a true db is required, some ppl like logseq which has some feature overlap w obsidian but is db-driven)

Re: Decker, a platform that builds on the legacy of Hypercard and classic macOS

#88

Post by Tade0 »

TimTheTinker wrote: post #86
temp0826 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Constraints really breed creativity. The demoscene is probably my favorite example of it.

This is why the perpetual obsession with creating new genres in university art departments is so dumb. One told a prospective student (my wife's friend) "we don't do beautiful here" as if that signals erudition. Real beauty comes from expressing something coherent within constraints such that the constraints become the means of expression.

I was happy to see gen Z art students dropping this sort of snobism when I visited a student art exhibition made for an edition of the Long Night of Museums in my city.

Instead of the usual hideous red, black, grey and white that seemed ubiquitous since at least the 80s along with the most terrible textures one could find, there was blue, yellow, different shades of green.

And one painting featuring an exchange of text messages.

Re: Decker, a platform that builds on the legacy of Hypercard and classic macOS

#89

Post by mempko »

2b3a51 wrote: post #85
mempko wrote: post #46

Wait, you are telling me people vibe created apps before LLMs? /s This is beautiful. I loved Hypercard when I was a kid. If they added networking to it, it would have been superior to web browsers! Please people, have some joy and stop taking people down a peg for vibe coding apps. Let people have fun again for once.

Vibe away. Vibe code like a teenager with leather trousers and a top with zips (punk days). Just don't put it in production or in a work flow where there could be consequences if (randomly) nondeterministic.

corporate mindset.

Re: Decker, a platform that builds on the legacy of Hypercard and classic macOS

#90

Post by tomhow »

bjconlan wrote: post #43
tomhow wrote: post #10

Previously: Decker: A reincarnation of HyperCard with 1-bit graphics - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40292181 - May 2024 (78 comments) Decker – A HyperCard Replacement - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38985409 - Jan 2024 (36 comments) Decker, a platform that builds on the legacy of Hypercard and classic macOS - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33377964 - Oct 2022 (88 comments)

Thanks, I want to add https://www.arraycast.com/2025/01/04/Decker.html which introduced me to it. I wish more people had exposure to q/k/apl and think this is a great way to do it. I think this is the first time I've seen this hit #1 which is nice

Thanks for that audio link. We've added it to the header of this thread, though you'd be welcome to submit it as its own post, perhaps in a few months (to allow time for it to feel fresh again once this thread has vacated the community's memory cache).
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