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French firefighters face 'pyrocumulonimbus' for first time

france24.com

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Re: French firefighters face 'pyrocumulonimbus' for first time

#321

Post by Kon5ole »

baxtr wrote: post #197
reco98gg wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main reason the forest is burning is global warming. There were 3 punishing heatwaves before the fire, it was just a matter of time. A part of the Fontainebleau forest, much more north, no pine trees, went in smoke earlier. Forests are burning near Madrid. It may make some people feel better to think that it is an isolated, local problem, but unfortunately global warming is the main culprit and we at least need t…

You’re both right. However OPs post is more useful than yours. By now, everyone knows about climate change. But I assume most didn’t know the fact about the pine trees in this area. Nowadays it’s much more about how we deal with climate change and not so much about the fact that there is human made climate change.

>By now, everyone knows about climate change. But I assume most didn’t know the fact about the pine trees in this area.

>Nowadays it’s much more about how we deal with climate change and not so much about the fact that there is human made climate change.

Well said!

The problem isn't who believes in global warming, the problem is a forest fire. It doesn't care if there are 0% or 100% believers. Moving the needle on that percentage has no effect on the problems we will face due to global warming.

Here and now it's possible for a small community or country to take actions that will help the next time there's a forest fire. Or a flood, or a drought, or a heat dome, or a blizzard where blizzards shouldn't be.

Such efforts should clearly be priority 1. A doctor dealing with a gunshot wound doesn't start by urging politicians to reduce crime rates, they start by stopping the bleeding.

Re: French firefighters face 'pyrocumulonimbus' for first time

#322

Post by jvanderbot »

Loquebantur wrote: post #320
Galanwe wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What is indicative of escalating climate catastrophe is indeed the intensity and frequency of those firestorms I don't think we have the data that proves this theory (which of course doesn't mean that the theory is wrong), because the vast majority of these fires are man-made, not natural disasters. This year's Fontainebleau wildfires were caused by 1) a deranged person ligthning bushes and drenching them with fuel…

You're conceptually wrong about "the theory" and factually about the majority of fires. The fundamental connection increase of CO2 => increase in mean temperature => increase in frequency of high-energy atmospheric events is entirely obvious and well established. CO2 traps heat and heat is energy. Firestorms are an immediate consequence of that and accordingly rise in frequency as well. The idea, such fires would be…

I think you're missing a step --> Drier forests and more downed trees.

All the lightning in the world isn't going to burn down a rainforest.

Re: French firefighters face 'pyrocumulonimbus' for first time

#323

Post by dolmen »

remus wrote: post #285
reco98gg wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main reason the forest is burning is global warming. There were 3 punishing heatwaves before the fire, it was just a matter of time. A part of the Fontainebleau forest, much more north, no pine trees, went in smoke earlier. Forests are burning near Madrid. It may make some people feel better to think that it is an isolated, local problem, but unfortunately global warming is the main culprit and we at least need t…

> A part of the Fontainebleau forest, much more north, no pine trees, went in smoke earlier. Forests are burning near Madrid. Small correction, but Fontainebleau is a fairly mixed forest including 20-30% pine.

Small correction, but the area of the Fontainebleau forest where the main fire occurred doesn't have this balance : les Trois Pignons, as name says, has a much higher density of pine trees.

Re: French firefighters face 'pyrocumulonimbus' for first time

#324

Post by baxtr »

Loquebantur wrote: post #316
baxtr wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You will not convince them by saying things over and over again. It’s not like they haven’t heard the facts. It might have even have the opposite effect, increasing their unwillingness to believe it’s more than just a hoax. Ask yourself: when was the last time vigorous repetition of a position has convinced you personally? You will convince them by showing them how to do it properly. Show them the way and they might…

You're very wrong. The propaganda practice of incessant repetition being effective even in face of blatantly obvious contradicting facts is well established. The reason climate catastrophe deniers incessantly repeat their nonsense isn't because they like to hear themselves talk, it's because it works. The majority of people are never convinced by rational arguments or facts, they act solely on subjectively perceived…

If I repeat here a thousand times that you’re wrong and we should focus on the effects of climate change and not the deniers will you believe me then?

Re: French firefighters face 'pyrocumulonimbus' for first time

#325

Post by pvaldes »

Dibby053 wrote: post #57

For context on why this region is burning so easily: the Landes and Médoc are huge, artificial pine forests created in the 19th century under Napoleon III to drain and reclaim what was considered an inhospitable wetland, where shepherds famously walked around on stilts. Pine resin and needle litter makes it exceptionally flammable, and being an uninterrupted monoculture on flat land it lacks natural barriers to stop…

Et Lancelot dans Brocéliande

Dans le roman de la Rose

Les pierres alignées de la lande

On sent quelque chose derrière les choses

Pines are the survivalists of the forests. They can grow where nobody else can. What I mean is that this monoculture of Pine trees is not really a monoculture. Is an ecosystem.

The Landes are set over a lot of marine sand, so is not easy to create a firewall (mixing flammable and less flammable trees). The solution of just replacing pines by other species is not so easy technically. Pines are the only native tree that can trive in such poor soil.

Re: French firefighters face 'pyrocumulonimbus' for first time

#326

Post by andsoitis »

Ma8ee wrote: post #218
andsoitis wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> blame capitalism. If nothing else because it has so far stopped all effective measure to stop the climate crisis. Growth-driven ecological harm isn’t unique to capitalism.

And? Capitalism is the current system, and the one that is actively thwarting efforts to mitigate the disaster. I don't see how the existence of other systems that would be equally bad or worse is relevant.

> I don't see how the existence of other systems that would be equally bad or worse is relevant.

Consumerism, the growth imperative, absence of proper carbon pricing, etc. ultimately cause ecological harm and are not exclusive to capitalism. Centrally planned economies have done the same. So you will have to address these, even if you have a different economic system.

Keep also in mind that capitalism has driven the technologies now central to decarbonization, like solar, batteries, etc., largely through market competition and innovation incentives.

Re: French firefighters face 'pyrocumulonimbus' for first time

#327

Post by svara »

Galanwe wrote: post #318
Loquebantur wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is indicative of escalating climate catastrophe is indeed the intensity and frequency of those firestorms, not any lack of precedent for a cloud shape. But the really salient observation is how people individually and their social system as a whole react (or not). Debating the shapes of clouds points to a fundamental dysfunctional disconnect on multiple levels.

> What is indicative of escalating climate catastrophe is indeed the intensity and frequency of those firestorms I don't think we have the data that proves this theory (which of course doesn't mean that the theory is wrong), because the vast majority of these fires are man-made, not natural disasters. This year's Fontainebleau wildfires were caused by 1) a deranged person ligthning bushes and drenching them with fuel…

People have not suddenly become deranged or simple minded.

Two of the large recent fires in the Landes region, including the most recent, have started from poorly maintained, spontaneously igniting cars. Those also have not suddenly started appearing out of nowhere.

The common thread is very dry forests, it just takes a spark for disaster.

Re: French firefighters face 'pyrocumulonimbus' for first time

#328

Post by svara »

holoduke wrote: post #261
reco98gg wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main reason the forest is burning is global warming. There were 3 punishing heatwaves before the fire, it was just a matter of time. A part of the Fontainebleau forest, much more north, no pine trees, went in smoke earlier. Forests are burning near Madrid. It may make some people feel better to think that it is an isolated, local problem, but unfortunately global warming is the main culprit and we at least need t…

We have these fires in france since I was born in early 80s. As far as I remember we had them almost every year. Nothing new about it. Doesn't say that global warming doesn't exist. But to shut of any discussion because of global warming is just wrong

Absolutely not. I've spent nearly every summer in the last 30 years in that region and it never was like this; it also wasn't that warm.

Occasional fires, sure. But very clearly nothing approaching the current scale and frequency.

The last really big one in that region was in 2022; and there are currently not one but 2 parallel fires in the same forest.

Re: French firefighters face 'pyrocumulonimbus' for first time

#329

Post by tjwebbnorfolk »

kuu wrote: post #230
tjwebbnorfolk wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

spain loses ~240,000 acres to wildfire every year. this is larger than normal, but fire is normal there

Yes, Spain has fires every year, but this time is different: 240,000 acres is about 97,000 hectares. By July 26, Spain had already lost more than 150,000 hectares, or around 371,000 acres, six times the area burned by the same point last year...

Yes that's what I meant by "this one is larger than normal"

Re: French firefighters face 'pyrocumulonimbus' for first time

#330

Post by [deleted] »

tcp_handshaker wrote: post #41

If you the are in the area and hesitating to evacuate, or if you want to realize what terrible phenomenon you are you facing. Watch this great documentary about the tragedy that unfolded in Portugal a few years ago. Leave now. "Witness to Disaster | National Geographic" - https://youtu.be/clTeqIpGBeU https://youtu.be/clTeqIpGBeU?t=1734

[deleted]
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