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How to write English prose (2023)

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Re: How to write English prose (2023)

#61

Post by pcrh »

starkshift wrote: post #43

I hate to say it, but the reactions in this discussion indicate to me a lack of imagination and literary thinking ability in the Hacker News audience. That is my overall impression anyway, I don't understand the hate!

Agreed. The audience here tends towards functional/technical writing rather than expressive writing.

On the other hand, should an article about typography be posted, then there will be many comments regarding the nuances of serifs, kerning, spacing and ligatures. Ignoring of course that none of these change the facts/data being communicated!

Re: How to write English prose (2023)

#63

Post by antonvs »

specproc wrote: post #29

So much hate for this piece in the thread, I'm seeing almost no positive comments. I'm tempted to be unkind, but will exercise restraint; we are here, for the most part, technical writers, for whom parsimony is a professional virtue. I loved it. We're in an age where matrix multiplication can yawn out endless passages of trite, dull, sludge. The author, to my mind, makes a powerful and inspiring case for a future for…

The issue I have with it is that it seems gratuitous, intended to impress - not that far from the edgy teenager who’s just discovered a thesaurus. Even the choice of passages he admires seems to fit that description.

Any reader is likely to come across passages that really speak to them at some point, but to raise that to “One really would have to have a miserly spirit not to love both” is just… sophomoric.

And if you think that “clankers” (such a silly, misapplied, childish term) somehow aren’t going to be capable of producing such prose, I have bad news for you.

Re: How to write English prose (2023)

#64

Post by paulluuk »

jpfromlondon wrote: post #57
GCA10 wrote: post #5

Kept out of sight in this rogue essay is the classic question: Who's your audience? If you're writing for yourself (and maybe a very small number of equally erudite readers) cut loose! Embrace "anfractuous density and heedless flamboyance." But if you're trying to change people's minds, or share knowledge widely, everything in this essay is defiantly at odds with what's necessary to get the rest of the world to pay a…

When I see what passes for modern writing, be it genre fiction, non-fic for the general audience, or even the literary, I'm not sure I want to appeal to, convince, or share knowledge with them. Like casting pearls before swine.

Your reply reads very similar to what Hart wrote:

> True, some readers become indignant at their own inability to follow prose of any complexity or to recognize words any more obscure than those they are accustomed to using when talking to their dogs.

I do think that there is value in using precise, obscure words to convey precise, obscure knowledge (as with Hart's pogonotrophy example).

However, if all critique is dismissed as the indignation of swine, then how will anyone holding that position ever be able to tell whether they are just a bad writer?

Hart suggests that they should critique themselves, or rely on the critiques of those who write in the same way as they do. I am a programmer though, not an author. But I know that only accepting reviews from those I consider accomplished enough, and ignoring reviews by others as if they were indignant at their own inability to comprehend my code, is a very dangerous path to walk.

Re: How to write English prose (2023)

#66

Post by tigerlily »

tigerlily wrote: post #34
Animats wrote: post #8

This guy hates Strunk and White’s Elements of Style , the famous "omit needless words" book. He's plugging for a baroque style that would be unreadable today. We do have baroque styles today, but they're different from classical baroque literature. They're the postings that start with a bio and cover the author's hobbies before getting to the point, perhaps including an anecdote from the author's past. There are writ…

I can't remember who, but someone definitely said "if you want to write, you must first fill a chest with writing, then lock that chest, take out a blank sheet and then you can begin". TFA as well as many other works of blog, belong in that chest.

Lest that comment be misconstrued for what sister comments frame as anger (are they not merely nonplussed?), I am happy for the writing to be. Except that all good writing is edited.

Presently I am reading Hilary Mantel, an exemplary prose writer of the highest merit, so I trust you'll forgive me my Jeevesian dismay at style of The Florid Article.

Re: How to write English prose (2023)

#67

Post by jpfromlondon »

paulluuk wrote: post #64
jpfromlondon wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I see what passes for modern writing, be it genre fiction, non-fic for the general audience, or even the literary, I'm not sure I want to appeal to, convince, or share knowledge with them. Like casting pearls before swine.

Your reply reads very similar to what Hart wrote: > True, some readers become indignant at their own inability to follow prose of any complexity or to recognize words any more obscure than those they are accustomed to using when talking to their dogs. I do think that there is value in using precise, obscure words to convey precise, obscure knowledge (as with Hart's pogonotrophy example). However, if all critique is d…

I don't think I would dismiss all critique as the indignation of swine. Previously valid criticism came in the form of review, be it from peers or the establishment, and while there might be a broader conversation to be had regarding the current state of literary review some voices probably have merit, I'm not familiar enough to know which, but would welcome recommendations from anyone that happens to read this.

I suspect most are drowned out by indignant squealing.

Re: code. I want to address you twice.

1. "ignoring reviews by others as if they were indignant at their own inability to comprehend my code", yes because doing so means ignoring your manager (hah).

2. Code review is very difficult to get right, the question I ask myself is whether I trust the individual to approach the repo without prejudice to the method or the author, I would think the ignorant would be reluctant to post a review lest their ignorance be broadcast to the team.

Re: How to write English prose (2023)

#68

Post by gabriel666smith »

I think there are tonnes of errors and repetition at the top of this essay. 'Glorious' repeats across two of the opening sentences, for example.

The title, combined with this, has provoked me into live-editing it.

I've turned on "anyone with the link can comment", and am using "suggest".

If you're interested, feel free to jump in:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GxprXLxbOlgaAQ2-IfYyk4zq...

There are lots of similarities between writing/editing prose and coding.

I think these become much more apparent when using version history / suggestion tools in word processors, especially collaboratively.

For editing long-form prose, especially fiction, word processing software is a long way behind git. This has always surprised me.

Re: How to write English prose (2023)

#69

Post by paulluuk »

jpfromlondon wrote: post #67
paulluuk wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your reply reads very similar to what Hart wrote: > True, some readers become indignant at their own inability to follow prose of any complexity or to recognize words any more obscure than those they are accustomed to using when talking to their dogs. I do think that there is value in using precise, obscure words to convey precise, obscure knowledge (as with Hart's pogonotrophy example). However, if all critique is d…

I don't think I would dismiss all critique as the indignation of swine. Previously valid criticism came in the form of review, be it from peers or the establishment, and while there might be a broader conversation to be had regarding the current state of literary review some voices probably have merit, I'm not familiar enough to know which, but would welcome recommendations from anyone that happens to read this. I su…

> yes because doing so means ignoring your manager Oh luckily I've been blessed with managers who don't code or do code reviews, so I lucked out there, haha.

But I'll admit that code review is actually not the best comparison, as my PRs don't get reviews from thousands of people from the public - only from other engineers. So I suppose that's actually an argument in favor of Hart.

Re: How to write English prose (2023)

#70

Post by feoren »

loopmonster wrote: post #26
doodaddy wrote: post #22

Look, I am in no position to seriously critique the author’s writing. He clearly has linguistic chops. But what kind of bunk is this? We get it, the flowery, overdrawn language of yore is more expressive. But that kind of writing gets in its own way. Words seem to trump concept. But reading that sort of writing feels like being in a museum; sure that Victorian gown looks pretty but does anyone actually want to wear i…

To be fair, even if I have to look up half the words in the post to understand what he's trying to say, 'Do not use a thesaurus' still has weight - it's one thing to already know the perfect word for what you're trying to say (even if many others don't know that word), but another to decide on a whim that a given word should be replaced with a more 'advanced' alternative without knowing what you'll find or understand…

> decide on a whim that a given word should be replaced with a more 'advanced' alternative without knowing what you'll find or understanding the nuances of your pick.

From the article:

> One really would have to have a miserly spirit not to love both.

One would need to have a spirit that is overly cautious with money to not love some Thomas Browne quotes? This author is 100% doing exactly that -- replacing words with ones they picked out of a thesaurus and don't fully understand.

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