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US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

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Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#531

Post by Fraterkes »

cameldrv wrote: post #74

I’ve seen a lot of people on the internet over the years say things like “the government can’t make x illegal, it’s just y.” For example, the government can’t make wiping your phone at the border illegal, it’s just punching four numbers into your phone, just like a pin, only a different four numbers, which could just have well been your pin. U.S. law though is highly non-autistic and what you were trying to do is jus…

Maybe I should get a thicker skin, but the prevalence of “autistic” as shorthand for “moronically literal-minded” on a place as prudish as hn is a bit surprising.

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#532

Post by epolanski »

schoen wrote: post #383

I co-wrote a border search guide for EFF some years ago. I was very interested in finding clever technical approaches but I later ended up feeling that I hadn't given enough thought to the overall threat model questions (even though the guide did address them, perhaps even somewhat usefully). The big picture problem is that the agents performing the searches have an enormous amount of power in terms of potentially se…

This is one of the reasons I also won't ever go to the US again.

While most of my Italian/Polish friends had 0 issues, on a handful of occasions people were stopped and questioned for hours with agents pretending full access to every single device and just overall treating you as criminals.

In one occasion a friend of mine stated that he was quite sure they just enjoyed that kind of sweeping power and it had nothing to do with border security, it was just fun to them.

In another one, the suspicion was on the fact that this person did not have socials, he just disliked them and had nothing except a Google account for Youtube. This fact made them super suspicious and the person was stuck at La Guardia for 3 hours, even his body was inspected. Disgusting.

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#533

Post by mrbn100ful »

microtonal wrote: post #463
unwise-exe wrote: post #254

Why is the headline blaming the OS for what the user chose to do? This is like saying it's my car's fault if I decided to drive onto the sidewalk or something.

Yes, the only relevant property is the use of a duress PIN. They could have simply stated that he erased his phone with a duress PIN. But "GrapheneOS! Spain! Profiling Pixel users! Spain equates GrapheneOS to criminals!" sounds far more spectacular and will give more clicks/links. Sadly, it feeds the narrative that GrapheneOS is just for activists/criminals/whatever. An iPhone in BFU state would have been nearly as s…

I mean, yes?

If 1% of iPhone users are criminals and 5% of GrapheneOS users are criminals, border search agents are going to be interested in your GrapheneOS mobile.

I am pretty sure criminals are more likely to use a super safe and secure phone that is easy to obtain.

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#534

Post by lefra »

hn_submit wrote: post #511
godwinson__4-8 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"U.S. law though is highly non-autistic" hilarious but also another point to emphasize is how truly depressing American courts often are. Take the right to a jury. It sounds noble in theory. But when they say judged by your peers they don't mean your actual peers. It's people who couldn't get out of jury duty. Prosecutors have high success rates. Federal prosecutor success rate is over > 90%. Studies of jury psycholo…

Yeah, but without a jury O.J. Simpson never would've walked out of court a free man. For example in Europe when someone dies somebody always has to go to jail, even if they were defending themselves or responding to a potential threat. A jury could show compassion or empathy. Judges are extremely stoic in that regard.

> in Europe when someone dies somebody always has to go to jail

Please cite the european law that states this.

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#535

Post by epolanski »

schoen wrote: post #431
realusername wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The big picture problem is that the agents performing the searches have an enormous amount of power in terms of potentially seizing devices and potentially denying entry for non-citizens. I think they should not have this power, but the agents and courts probably don't care that I think that. That's the reason I never traveled to the US and never will, just having IT security in your CV is enough to make the border…

Note that border searches of electronic devices are extremely rare overall. There were some statistics from CBP implying a base rate lower than 1 in 10,000 (I think lower than 1 in 100,000) border crossings. I do know two people who have experienced them as a result of the government taking a personal interest in them, so it's certainly not impossible. However, it's not a common experience. I've personally experience…

I'm European and I know plenty, albeit the minority of those I know that went to the US, so I wonder how reliable are CBP stats.

Maybe my anecdotal experience is influenced by me being in IT, but still.

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#536

Post by epolanski »

rustyhancock wrote: post #427
realusername wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The big picture problem is that the agents performing the searches have an enormous amount of power in terms of potentially seizing devices and potentially denying entry for non-citizens. I think they should not have this power, but the agents and courts probably don't care that I think that. That's the reason I never traveled to the US and never will, just having IT security in your CV is enough to make the border…

It's also quite surprising that all socials need to be declared. And presumably them AI vetted in time for you to get to the border.

You also have to provide every single email account you have used in the last ten years, all of them, forgetting to declare one is an offense.

There's no chances I can remember them all, especially as I've been contracting and get a new email every 3-4 months or so.

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#538

Post by aucisson_masque »

sfRattan wrote: post #25

Ultimately, when you choose to enter a duress PIN that will wipe your device, you have to recognize that choice may have legal consequences. I don't like the amount of power our government has at the national border when it comes to detaining and pressuring citizens, but our Constitution explicitly grants it at least some of the power it now exercises in that context. If your threat model includes US state actors at…

> 1. Don't travel with anything you can't afford to lose on device. This means setting up travel-specific password managers and hardware keys for a subset of your accounts that you absolutely need to access while abroad, and being prepared to reset those passwords and disable those hardware keys very quickly once home.

> 2. Review past legal cases against travelers and identify what behaviors the government considers worthy of prosecution or harassment. Your secure setup must function without needing you to engage in those behaviors, even if it is less convenient as a result. This isn't perfect, as the government may decide some new behavior is prosecutable.

> 3. Consult with a lawyer and review your security procedures from a legal standpoint. All of the above is technical and practical advice, not legal counsel and no substitute for it.

Just don't go to the usa and if it's for professional reason, don't bring your personal phone.

Re: US citizen charged after GrapheneOS phone wipes during airport search

#540

Post by aucisson_masque »

You wouldn't be surprised if that happened when traveling to China or any other autocratic country.

I think the issue is that people expect the USA to be the "land of freedom" when it's not anymore. It's turning more and more into an oligarchy and we are at the point where it's just as bad as russia or china.

If i was offered a trip to China or russia, i'd go but i would take a burner phone with absolutely nothing important; It's the same for the usa now.

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