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I wanted a clock that never needed setting. Things escalated

arstechnica.com

61–70 of 180 posts

Re: I wanted a clock that never needed setting. Things escalated

#61
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But a smartphone's time is set how? Via the mobile network (NITZ) or NTP (SNTP)! And what protocol is going across the Bluetooth connection but SNTP? In NTP terms, your alarm clock is now in a stratum below the smartphone, and with only one source of truth, not a good situation.

I meant the clock itself doesn’t need an internet or local network connection, with which it could do things other than syncing the time.

Then I think this is a trap to get some kind of proprietary app onto your phone.

The clock could set itself from radio signals: standards-compliant.

The clock could have WiFi or Ethernet and use [S]NTP: standards-compliant.

The clock could have a SIM and use NITZ: standards-compliant.

But BT it is. So now rather than having a dependency on standard or generic resources, it requires a BT pairing with the right kind of phone Ridiculous.

Re: I wanted a clock that never needed setting. Things escalated

#62
The author's primary lament is clocks that cannot withstand power flickers, yet every sub-$10 mains voltage clock from Walmart and Target that I've ever seen will take a 9V battery to make them resilient against such power interruptions.

Might want to flip the clock over and check for a battery door before starting next time.

Re: I wanted a clock that never needed setting. Things escalated

#63
post #48

I think a single clock-output-only microcontroller would be nifty. Something where you can save settings, such as NTP servers and an all time change dates, but that’s it. Pair it with PoE Ethernet and you wouldn’t even need a power supply, only an Ethernet jack in the wall. With the right display you could make it super thin.

POE clocks are SURPRISINGLY expensive.

https://www.american-time.com/shop/?fwp_product_brand=power-...

Someday, my precious, someday. (My dream clocks would have a smooth-sweeping second hand, no ticking (silent) and be PoE and NTP.)

Re: I wanted a clock that never needed setting. Things escalated

#64

I want a beautiful eink clock that gets its time from gps/gnss. It seems too much to have to collect a clock to wifi. Just turn it on and it should work.

Indoor GPS reception is spotty, especially in urban / high-rise environments, so I don't think that's a realistically marketable product. Not unless you some have some window- or balcony-mounted probe, which would then require battery changes (although I suppose you could make it solar-powered).

There already are clocks with GPS (but maybe not eink): try searching for seiko space link clocks eg https://www.sakurawatches.com/index.php?route=product/produc...

Re: I wanted a clock that never needed setting. Things escalated

#65
post #11

I’ve had a Phillips “atomic” alarm clock beside my bed for 23 years that just sets based on radio signal and auto restores if the power is lost, to which it has a backup 9v battery. There’s a time zone setting offset slider and a DST slider. I basically touch it twice a year, maybe another if I move time zones. I’ve only had to touch it for DST (never switched time zones). Takes me conservatively 10 seconds to find a…

Floridian here. WWVB has never worked for me indoors (never tried outdoors). I've tried multiple vendors' clocks in multiple houses (wood frame and concrete). I assume the coverage is fine outdoors or with a sufficiently large antenna, but none of the clocks I've seen even have a mechanism to connect such an antenna. I could hack one, but then it would probably stop being cheap and reliable.

I'd love to buy an off-the-shelf WiFi+NTP clock, but everything I've seen is very expensive, intended for commercial timing applications or synchronizing clocks across a campus.

Re: I wanted a clock that never needed setting. Things escalated

#66
post #10

I feel this article's premise too much. That's exactly the sort of clock I wanted to get my mom as a gift. Why is it so dang impossible to find a not trash simple LED clock that's 'large print', 'the right color', and not annoyingly too bright? A deluxe model might include a day of the week bar or dot and a month / day in month number (smaller than the time, mostly people care about the time)

My parents rely on mechanical clocks, adjusting and ‘winding’ weights almost every day, they take great joy and pride from the fiddling. It’s fun to hear the clocks announce the hour and slowly hear them drift over time.

Re: I wanted a clock that never needed setting. Things escalated

#67
This is a harder problem than it seems. I've been thinking and reading about it for a side project, but haven't done much testing yet.

There are a few places to get the current time:

- on-board real-time clock (RTC) connected to a continuous power source (e.g. button battery)

- GPS

- Colorado WWVB signal (60 KHz), Frankfurt DCF-77 (77.5 KHz), Cumbria NPL (60 KHz)

- the internet (NTP, HTTPS servers, etc.)

- mobile internet (e.g. LTE)

- estimate time elapsed between power cycles by tracking and storing IEEE 802.11 timing synchronization function (TSF) timestamps from nearby wifi routers.

All of these are potentially problematic.

The best option is the RTC. Buy a DS3231, hook it up to your microcontroller and a button battery, and forget about it for a few years. The only problem with these (besides the battery) is that they can drift pretty badly. The fancy ones account for temperature fluctuations and are accurate to ~2 ppm, which is one minute per year. Aside from the drift, it sucks to need an always-on dedicated IC just to know the time, especially if you don't always need to know the time.

GPS is nice but it's hard to get a signal indoors, especially in a skyscraper far away from a window, as can happen here in New York. You also need a relatively bulky component and an antenna.

The longwave radio signals (WWVB, DCF-77, and NPL) are neat and old and what "atomic clocks" use, but the signal is tiny and you need a sensitive long-running receiver, either with a gigantic antenna or a slightly less gigantic ferrite rod. Even then, one of those cheap atomic clocks might not sync at all unless it's placed near a window. The WWVB signal is also very weak in certain parts of America and at certain times of day, so your circuit might only get a bit of signal over the noise once or twice a day, which might or might not be enough to deduce the time.

The plain old internet works fine, but then your power budget involves a wifi radio, though you only need to run it for a few hundred milliseconds per hour. You also need a wifi password, which is a pain to configure in an IoT device. Also, you wanted a clock, why does it need the internet? GTFOOH.

Mobile internet is way overkill.

The last idea is something I haven't tested fully, since my microcontroller (raspberry pi pico w) can't keep up with the "promiscuous mode" unofficially offered by its wifi chip. It's a neat idea, though: you're in an environment with wifi routers all around, and you want to guess the time elapsed since you last checked by listening, without credentials, to the chatter. With enough routers and some flash storage you can probably keep track of time, assuming the whole area doesn't get a power outage.

That's my very long way of saying that keeping time is a solved problem but all of the solutions have drawbacks and none works perfectly.

Re: I wanted a clock that never needed setting. Things escalated

#68
post #11

I’ve had a Phillips “atomic” alarm clock beside my bed for 23 years that just sets based on radio signal and auto restores if the power is lost, to which it has a backup 9v battery. There’s a time zone setting offset slider and a DST slider. I basically touch it twice a year, maybe another if I move time zones. I’ve only had to touch it for DST (never switched time zones). Takes me conservatively 10 seconds to find a…

Floridian here. WWVB has never worked for me indoors (never tried outdoors). I've tried multiple vendors' clocks in multiple houses (wood frame and concrete). I assume the coverage is fine outdoors or with a sufficiently large antenna, but none of the clocks I've seen even have a mechanism to connect such an antenna. I could hack one, but then it would probably stop being cheap and reliable. I'd love to buy an off-th…

You can spoof the wireless signal if you don't get coverage. There are surely more and better Android options, but I used Clock Wave to set a clock from Germany back in the US.

https://cw.rzapps.com/

It's really clever! It uses the speaker as the low frequency transmitter. It doesn't sound right, but it only needs the coil to radiate EM waves.

Re: I wanted a clock that never needed setting. Things escalated

#69
post #11

I’ve had a Phillips “atomic” alarm clock beside my bed for 23 years that just sets based on radio signal and auto restores if the power is lost, to which it has a backup 9v battery. There’s a time zone setting offset slider and a DST slider. I basically touch it twice a year, maybe another if I move time zones. I’ve only had to touch it for DST (never switched time zones). Takes me conservatively 10 seconds to find a…

[deleted]

Re: I wanted a clock that never needed setting. Things escalated

#70
post #11

I’ve had a Phillips “atomic” alarm clock beside my bed for 23 years that just sets based on radio signal and auto restores if the power is lost, to which it has a backup 9v battery. There’s a time zone setting offset slider and a DST slider. I basically touch it twice a year, maybe another if I move time zones. I’ve only had to touch it for DST (never switched time zones). Takes me conservatively 10 seconds to find a…

Floridian here. WWVB has never worked for me indoors (never tried outdoors). I've tried multiple vendors' clocks in multiple houses (wood frame and concrete). I assume the coverage is fine outdoors or with a sufficiently large antenna, but none of the clocks I've seen even have a mechanism to connect such an antenna. I could hack one, but then it would probably stop being cheap and reliable. I'd love to buy an off-th…

Ditto in NC. I got this WiFi/NTP clock a couple years ago. Works great if you want an analog clock:

https://www.amazon.com/OCEST-Wall-Clock-12Inch-Auto/dp/B0DJS...

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