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GM Backs Sodium Ion Batteries for U.S. Grid Storage

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Re: GM Backs Sodium Ion Batteries for U.S. Grid Storage

#101

Post by formerly_proven »

subscribed wrote: post #94
formerly_proven wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany is currently liquidating their high-performance lithium-ion battery maker. Western industrial policy is indistinguishable from malicious interference.

That's quite staggering. First shutting down working and safe nuclear power plants in favour of coal, then that. At this rate I start wondering who actually makes this policy, at most turns exposing the country more to the energy markets issues and making them more reliant on OPEC and Putin.

If you look back at the last 30-40 years german industry was often at the leading edge of emerging technologies, e.g. different types of renewable energy (especially wind and solar), automation, robotics, machine learning and so on, advanced ADAS, and to a lesser degree with batteries and EVs (though broadly competitive with lots of investment). It's just that they get backstabbed the shit out of them by politics. Who then turn around and act all pikachu at the job losses.

I don't think there is any other country which had this many opportunities and leads into high-growth and ultra-high-growth industries and made sure none of them panned out. That's not bad timing or bad luck, it's systemic. Maybe the US's conversion into a petrostate?

Re: GM Backs Sodium Ion Batteries for U.S. Grid Storage

#103

Post by CyanLite2 »

rsyring wrote: post #30
Aboutplants wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d love a shed sized battery sitting on the corner of my property if it could give me 5-7 days of power.

That would you pay for that shed size battery?

You can get a 16kWh LFP battery for $2-3k USD.

Re: GM Backs Sodium Ion Batteries for U.S. Grid Storage

#104

Post by saturn8601 »

dzhiurgis wrote: post #96
TwiztidK wrote: post #4

My company operates two Jupiter Power owned LFP batteries in the MISO market. Each of them draws .5 - 2MW constantly for the HVAC system. If the cost for sodium batteries is similar to LFP, that alone would be a reason to switch.

Sodium going to reach price parity in about 15 years. Until then its strength is cold weather performance and slightly simpler supply chain.

This is exciting but what kinds of things are actually done to improve the price(like if people know the solution already then why not already do it?) and how do you determine 15 years?

Re: GM Backs Sodium Ion Batteries for U.S. Grid Storage

#105

Post by dzhiurgis »

saturn8601 wrote: post #104
dzhiurgis wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sodium going to reach price parity in about 15 years. Until then its strength is cold weather performance and slightly simpler supply chain.

This is exciting but what kinds of things are actually done to improve the price(like if people know the solution already then why not already do it?) and how do you determine 15 years?

Sodium hydroxide is main cost saving, but also there’s slightly cheaper form of graphite anode. So IIRC it’s 20% cost saving once new manufacturing process amortises.

Thing is - LFP process keeps getting cheaper and charts show it’s going to be 15 years until sodium reaches LFP cost.

Re: GM Backs Sodium Ion Batteries for U.S. Grid Storage

#106

Post by rbanffy »

nine_k wrote: post #33
antisthenes wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If the cost for sodium batteries is similar to LFP, that alone would be a reason to switch. Why would that be a reason to switch, given the LFP batteries typically have better operational parameters in everything except cold-weather charging?

Cost of replacement? Cost of insurance against a fire? Cold weather performance may also be quite important, and not only somewhere in Alaska, but even in places like Dallas, that are hot in summer but cold during winter nights.

> in places like Dallas, that are hot in summer but cold during winter nights.

In this case I’d suggest underground installation. Use the Earth as an insulator and heat sink. Temperatures underground are a lot more stable and predictable.

Re: GM Backs Sodium Ion Batteries for U.S. Grid Storage

#107

Post by rbanffy »

defrost wrote: post #54
scarecrowbob wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm writing this from my off grid shack. I have 15kwh of lifepo, and even if it weren't hooked to 4kw of solar I could still run my fridge, charge my phone, and run the fan in my fireplace for 4-6 days... longer if I dump the fridge. It's 6U of deep 19" rack space. So 2 x that isn't an entire shed-sized battery. Though I'd happily have a shed-sized battery... I suspect that delivering and covering something that size…

> It's 6U of deep 19" rack space. If the GP commenter is typing in from the UK .. that's a not uncommon garden tool shed size. By contrast modern Australian farm sheds have clouds forming within them and host birds that seasonally migrate from one side to the other.

You’ll be fine as long as you don’t go near the corners. The spiders are… vicious…

Re: GM Backs Sodium Ion Batteries for U.S. Grid Storage

#108

Post by rbanffy »

cucumber3732842 wrote: post #93
wlesieutre wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not an expert, but from what I read the expectation is for sodium ion batteries to get substantially cheaper than lithium, mainly due to material cost. Lithium makes up 0.002% of the Earth's crust, meanwhile sodium is 2.36%, and there's quite a lot of it in the ocean. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundance_of_elements_in_Earth... The main downside is power density, which for grid storage is not as big a deal as it i…

>The main downside is power density, which for grid storage is not as big a deal It matters less but it's still a big deal though. You need to inject the power near where you need it otherwise you have to upgrade everything between you and them, roughly speaking. So you can't put your battery in BFE where land is cheap. Cost increases from that plus environmental and site development regs (which are always more in de…

> You need to inject the power near where you need it otherwise you have to upgrade everything between you and them

Or you install them near your solar/wind farm (or where the power connects to shore, if it’s offshore). If it’s a shore install, you might run a desalination side business when you have surplus energy.

Re: GM Backs Sodium Ion Batteries for U.S. Grid Storage

#109

Post by rbanffy »

reacharavindh wrote: post #85
wlesieutre wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not an expert, but from what I read the expectation is for sodium ion batteries to get substantially cheaper than lithium, mainly due to material cost. Lithium makes up 0.002% of the Earth's crust, meanwhile sodium is 2.36%, and there's quite a lot of it in the ocean. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundance_of_elements_in_Earth... The main downside is power density, which for grid storage is not as big a deal as it i…

A dystopian possibly impractical dream.. imagine a pyramid like structure in every neighborhood, made from blocks of such cheap sodium ion batteries, the outside of the pyramid is covered in soil and greens, the top which could even be a windmill. The green space is for walking around, kids playing, a few bike trails, whatever fun. The whole neighborhood is power buffered through this pyramid. The national power grid…

If you make them with Lithium batteries every neighbourhood can have their own volcano.

I’ll show myself out.

Re: GM Backs Sodium Ion Batteries for U.S. Grid Storage

#110

Post by ryzvonusef »

adrian_b wrote: post #90
ryzvonusef wrote: post #77

from what I've heard, the problem with moving sodium from lab to manufacturing is that all the industrial processes and machinery have been setup for lithium and the factories are reluctant to invest in entire new sodium setup for not much benefit for them ; lithium works perfectly well and is in fact the superior product, why switch? Lithium prices have faced a massive crash, so there is no cost penalty for them any…

In TFA it said that the US company that was shut down (Natron) pursued a solution quite different from lithium batteries (with an organo-metallic electrode), which may have been a reason for their failure. On the other hand the 2 Chinese companies that now make sodium batteries "rely on sodium iron pyrophosphate (NFPP) cathodes, which are chemically and structurally similar to lithium-iron phosphate in an LFP battery…

> It is unavoidable that in the long term the cost of sodium batteries will be much lower than of any lithium batteries.

The question is, will it be meaningfully lower?

if processes are mature, and because of economies of scale the difference comes out to something like a few cents (or less) per cell... at that point it might become meaningful to ask if the density becomes in play again.

Sure for grid density is not an issue, but installing and setting up a pack still has a cost... so let's say the cost saved by sodium allows them to buy an extra pack... but lithium's density allows them to save the headache of installing that extra pack... won't it even out?

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