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The Dark Night of Mathematics

kirwinhampshire.substack.com

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Re: The Dark Night of Mathematics

#271

Post by amarka »

cubefox wrote: post #252
amarka wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“ one way that humans have historically accessed the ineffable” that’s my question, what about the other ways that have been automated away. Is there something special about mathematics or is it the authors first encounter with obsolescence?

The automatic dishwasher has replaced the human dishwasher, but I highly doubt that dishwashing was one way that humans have historically accessed the ineffable.

Maybe if you think really hard you’ll come up with other (more useful) examples.

Re: The Dark Night of Mathematics

#272

Post by satvikpendem »

vouaobrasil wrote: post #232
satvikpendem wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe the genie provides full proofs of each result. So will the journey still matter? For a true mathematician it should not.

Of course it does because the joy of math is discovering something yourself. At some point you just want to stare at a blank sheet of paper, start with a premise and go on a journey. Are you a mathematician or scientist? I am and just typing "tell me the proof of this result" sounds immensely boring to me. Have you ever played a video game with an "invincibility cheat"? Boring. But you do get to the end and "solve th…

Don't conflate the joy of doing math with the benefits of knowing new mathematics.

Re: The Dark Night of Mathematics

#273

Post by skeledrew »

justanotherjoe wrote: post #258
skeledrew wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would those persons mentioned have found themselves in a state of crisis if they were alive today? And it still doesn't touch on the core question: what does math and spirituality really have in common (beyond the extrinsic connection someone may make because they're emotionally overwhelmed by the "beauty" of the golden ratio appearing in nature, for example)?

Probably they wouldn't be. A lot of this is people catastrophizing. Probably already somewhat unhappy even before. Regarding spirituality i think it's more about math itself than math as a discipline. Math might be divine. Even if math is divine, i think doing math doesnt make you more spiritual.

In what way could math be divine? What does "divine" even mean in this context?

Re: The Dark Night of Mathematics

#274

Post by skeledrew »

vouaobrasil wrote: post #239
skeledrew wrote: post #98

This is the first I've ever heard math connected to the spiritual. For all my life it has been this rigorous thing grounded in reality in such a way that only people who think a certain way could even approach. Now those people are having this strange "crisis" because AI is being more rigorous than humans I guess. I find it... wild. My, but how the mighty have fallen.

Almost all mathematicians I know admit to feeling spiritual about discovery in the mathematical world. Engineers are taught the rigorous thing but it goes way beyond that. In fact, I bet a lot of people find some satisfaction in their work that goes beyond the practical. Artists, etc. That's what AI threatens because it destroys strong communities of people who value such work.

In what way is it destroying communities? Is AI preventing anyone from doing their own work to discover/rederive whatever it is they're interested in? Or is it just showing them, and eventually everyone else, the truth that nothing humans do is special and many are finding that hard to handle?

Re: The Dark Night of Mathematics

#275

Post by tptacek »

xorcist wrote: post #257
tptacek wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Chicagoland, which has the largest water reclamation facility on Earth in order to prevent the entire region's basements from flooding under storm water pressure. It doesn't work, and I have multiple times had the pleasure of watching from my basement stairs as plumbers waded through raw sewage to clear obstructions in the lines at my house. It's a tough job that requires a lot of skill and nobody is doing…

Thank you for proving my point by fixating on the raw sewage part. Contrary to what you think, no plumber would abstain from fixing plumbing permanently, even if it meant no more wading through said sewage.

I gotta admit here I'm completely lost on what we're debating.

Re: The Dark Night of Mathematics

#276

Post by lofaszvanitt »

Jtarii wrote: post #99
d_burfoot wrote: post #92

Every single knowledge worker is going to face this kind of crisis. It will be worse for people who cared deeply about their craft, but the crisis will have the same shape. The way through is to change the way you relate to your work, and to appreciate the fact that you can now produce far more output. Mathematicians should realize: instead of spending decades on individual theorems, you can now create whole new subf…

The creation is the actually enjoyable part. Taking a helicopter to the top of Everest is not as rewarding as climbing the mountain. You are completely discrediting the joy humans derive from actually -doing- the work, and not just, telling someone else to do the work. There is a reason artists hate AI, its because they enjoy the actual act of painting, like mathematicians enjoy the act of proving theorems and progra…

You wanted to say: Removing the last bit of joy, anything humane from creating.

Re: The Dark Night of Mathematics

#277

Post by pvsk10 »

tim333 wrote: post #267
Jtarii wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The creation is the actually enjoyable part. Taking a helicopter to the top of Everest is not as rewarding as climbing the mountain. You are completely discrediting the joy humans derive from actually -doing- the work, and not just, telling someone else to do the work. There is a reason artists hate AI, its because they enjoy the actual act of painting, like mathematicians enjoy the act of proving theorems and progra…

But you can still try to climb Everest even if helicopters are available, and likewise you can still try to do maths even if LLMs can do it quicker.

Absolutely you can, just don't expect to make a living out of it anymore.

Re: The Dark Night of Mathematics

#278

Post by xerox13ster »

Nevermark wrote: post #130
neonstatic wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You make a fair point, I did not elaborate. My comment about AI psychosis was provoked by this comment in particular: > AI isn't a tame long term transition - in scale it is bigger than any transition since the first individual cells. It's such a wild hyperbole. You are casually claiming the stochastic text generator is a greater invention than fire, combustion engine, electricity, a transistor, computers, quantum me…

The stochastic text generator perspective is ... bunk. Not saying that harshly, but it confuses the form of a problem with a form of solution. There is no inhibition of "understanding" because of a form of a problem. If solving a problem requires complex modeling/understanding, that is what happens (assuming performance is achieved). It also confuses stochastic models with the geometric transforms and topological fol…

> It also confuses stochastic models with the geometric transforms and topological folding and expansion performed by neural-inspired architectures.

It sounds like you are confused here. That geometric transformation and topological folding and expansion is what generates the stochastic model.

They are one and the same. You’re taking for granted based on stochastic text output that an inert geological substrate is conscious, cognitive, and living. Inert means lacking the ability or strength to move. They cannot move or modify themselves, and if you want to point out robotics or automated system systems, it required us, actual living beings, to outfit them with motors.

You have AI psychosis. Go to sleep.

Re: The Dark Night of Mathematics

#280

Post by paulorlando »

I feel for the guy who wrote this. I feel this myself at times. But it's also not a productive feeling, as cruel as that sounds.

There's a Chinese idiom: 生不逢时 "to be born at the wrong time." The story was about a man who, when young, lived in a peaceful kingdom (they needed older men then). Then, when he was old, he lived in a kingdom at war (they needed young men then). You can't choose when you are born or what environment you are born into.

I also wonder what it would be like to be this age in, say, the year 2226 and to think "hey, I could have been a great mathematician if I had been born 200+ years earlier!" Or to think, "hey, if I had been born 500 years earlier I would have been a great explorer."

Do what you can with the time you are in. It will go by just as fast.

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