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Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI

politico.com

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Re: Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI

#961

Post by slashdave »

stale2002 wrote: post #959
slashdave wrote: post #932

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Distillation is forbidden by the provider of the model. I suppose you think that model providers are not allowed to impose restrictions on the use of their model? Think carefully before answering.

> I suppose you think that model providers are not allowed to impose restrictions on the use of their model They should have exactly the same ability to "restrict" it is as the writer of a book on those who read the book that was purchased. And seeing as those model providers were not restricted from training on those books.... It would follow that other people would have the exact same right to train on the output o…

> So someone could simply do a passthrough, and give the uncopyrightable output to someone else to distill

It seems you do not understand what distillation is.

Re: Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI

#962

Post by stale2002 »

slashdave wrote: post #961
stale2002 wrote: post #959

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I suppose you think that model providers are not allowed to impose restrictions on the use of their model They should have exactly the same ability to "restrict" it is as the writer of a book on those who read the book that was purchased. And seeing as those model providers were not restricted from training on those books.... It would follow that other people would have the exact same right to train on the output o…

> So someone could simply do a passthrough, and give the uncopyrightable output to someone else to distill It seems you do not understand what distillation is.

You have misunderstood my statement.

I am saying that someone else would use that output to create or improve a different model. I think you could have figured out that this was the meaning of my statement instead of doing the irrelevant nitpick that you did.

Its also unrelated to my point, which is that person 1 could give the data from model A to person 2, and person 2 would be fine because they didn't sign any TOS contracts with model A, and the output from model AI is not copyrightable and therefore can be redistributed.

Additionally, it still doesn't address the point about how the original model trained on a bunch of other people's stuff without permission, so I don't see why the same shouldn't be done to their outputted content.

Do you have any substantive disagreements or are you just going to make a minute, incorrect nitpick and then not elaborate?

Re: Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI

#964

Post by allarm »

wasfgwp wrote: post #948
allarm wrote: post #941

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the median American generally has q higher standards of livin than the resident of pretty much any major country (including Europe) If you say so. I visit the U.S. quite often, and the homeless and mentally ill people on the streets there don’t seem particularly happy. I haven’t seen anything like this on such a scale either in the country where I was born, in the countries where I used to live, or in the country w…

Yes, that’s exactly what I said. The median and above are doing very well in relative terms, the bottom line 10 percent or so are often doing much worse compared to other developed countries. > I suppose it’s just my misconception, sure. I don’t think you are actually arguing with me.

> I don’t think you are actually arguing with me.

I'm not. I just know for a fact that statistics (and indexes) are lies.

Re: Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI

#965

Post by [deleted] »

slashdave wrote: post #933
potsandpans wrote: post #691

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except this is not fraud. And just because a company _really_ wants to make a trillion dollar valuation doesn't mean they get to invent a new type of fraud.

Yes, breaking the terms of use is fraud. And, no, no self-respecting company would do this deliberately.

[deleted]

Re: Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI

#966

Post by potsandpans »

slashdave wrote: post #933
potsandpans wrote: post #691

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except this is not fraud. And just because a company _really_ wants to make a trillion dollar valuation doesn't mean they get to invent a new type of fraud.

Yes, breaking the terms of use is fraud. And, no, no self-respecting company would do this deliberately.

you seem to think just saying things makes them true. how's that working out for you?

Re: Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI

#967

Post by greenavocado »

reissbaker wrote: post #372
3eb7988a1663 wrote: post #28

If there were ever a sign I need to get mirroring, this is it. What are the best Chinese models on HuggingFace today? Bucket by ideal RAM: Text generation, image generation, TTS, etc

256+: GLM-5.2 (swap with Kimi K3 when it goes open-weight on Monday) Chinese model but probably Laguna S2.1. The best Chinese model at this size is DeepSeek V4 Flash though <16: Oof, not sure. Nothing will feel great at this size TBQH without finetuning on a specific task. Pick your poison of tiny Qwen or tiny Gemma (although again Gemma is not Chinese)

[dead]

Re: Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI

#968

Post by scotty79 »

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #298
scotty79 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we are already quarter of century in. It started with reaction to 9/11 and only got worse since then. Damage was pretty much self-inflicted.

I think it started when the Soviet Union fell apart because we had no global peer or competition and became unserious.

USA lives only through its enemies. Attempt at supplanting Soviet Union with terrorists failed spectacularly. Recent stunt of portraying China as the enemy won't probably go well either. It might go even worse since China, unlike any previous US picked enemies, is not only believable but also truly capable.

Re: Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI

#969

Post by johnnyanmac »

cobbzilla wrote: post #541
treyd wrote: post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But thats also an admittance that the American labs can’t compete on merit anymore This is exactly it. Try to buy a BYD in the United States. You can't (without a complicated process) because they're so much better cars than our domestic brands that our domestic brands couldn't compete and lobbied to keep them out. > should by itself also limit the viability of the idea that all those VC billions will ever make a r…

I can understand (not necessarily defend) protectionism for products with nonzero manufacturing cost and some required physical size and such. I am befuddled when the same policies are applied to products with marginally zero manufacturing cost, no real physical size, and such. Regulating ideas is hard folks.

>I am befuddled when the same policies are applied to products with marginally zero manufacturing cost, no real physical size, and such.

Because it's not about perfect obstructionism, it's about adding red tape to businesses that end up relenting and going to a frontier model. If this gets these frontier models an extra few million dollars in exchange for greasing some palms, that's a business success.

Re: Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI

#970

Post by johnnyanmac »

thesmtsolver2 wrote: post #739
treyd wrote: post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But thats also an admittance that the American labs can’t compete on merit anymore This is exactly it. Try to buy a BYD in the United States. You can't (without a complicated process) because they're so much better cars than our domestic brands that our domestic brands couldn't compete and lobbied to keep them out. > should by itself also limit the viability of the idea that all those VC billions will ever make a r…

> because they're so much better cars than our domestic brands Is that objectively true? True after factoring in harms they do to human rights and the environment? Nope. https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2026/may/12/c... https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/10/human-rights-... Remember, even EU despite claiming to be morally superior to the US, heavily tariffs BYD (much more than the tariffs that…

>after factoring in harms they do to human rights and the environment

America c. 2025 and beyond has no leg to stand on in terms of espousing care of human rights and environment.

>even EU despite claiming to be morally superior to the US, heavily tariffs BYD (much more than the tariffs that the globe mocks Trump for).

You are technically correct... because Trump did not actually Tariff BYD directly. The 100% EV tariffs was a Biden era move, made to give American manufacturers time to develop their own EV solutions for the domestic market. Separate from whatever global tariffs Trump announced.

And then trump ended EV credits, and ultimately pushed the road down to American manufacturers giving up on their EV initiatives.

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