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Open-weight AI is having its Kubernetes moment

tobi.knaup.me

301–310 of 346 posts

Re: Open-weight AI is having its Kubernetes moment

#301
post #291
post #126

Everyone is talking about banning Chinese models but nobody talks how it is feasible to ban them. I think it’s impossible simply because technically there is no such thing as a “Chinese model”. There is no way to tell apart an “American” model from a “Chinese” one by looking at their weights. Weights are just numbers and you can’t assign country of origin to numbers. One can find very easy workarounds to any naive at…

> So, any solution to this “problem” must include ALL open-weight models. I think that is what the "leading AI labs" actually want. They don't care where the open weight models come from, they just don't want to compete with them. The fact that a lot of the open weight models come from china is just a convenient circumstance they can leverage to get the government to give them what they really want.

It would be lovely to see NVIDIA accidentally delay some allocations to frontier AI labs calling for banning open weight models.

Oops, sorry, production issue, chip shortage… now about that open model ban you’re lobbying for…

Re: Open-weight AI is having its Kubernetes moment

#302
post #126

Everyone is talking about banning Chinese models but nobody talks how it is feasible to ban them. I think it’s impossible simply because technically there is no such thing as a “Chinese model”. There is no way to tell apart an “American” model from a “Chinese” one by looking at their weights. Weights are just numbers and you can’t assign country of origin to numbers. One can find very easy workarounds to any naive at…

> So, any solution to this “problem” must include ALL open-weight models. What about the EU? Would they follow Uncle Sam's order to ban all open-weight models? Lately the EU hasn't been that cozy with american companies: there are EU companies and institutions moving to EU clouds, the EU just fine Google a cool billion, several are switching away from Windows to Linux, etc. Or is it just the US that'd ban open-weight…

I won't be surprised EU banning Chinese models at all, because EU govt.s also hate China just like US.

I'm not surprised by the hypocrisy of western govt.s, "it is good when they do, bad others do. Only western lives are precious not Palestians, etc."

Re: Open-weight AI is having its Kubernetes moment

#303

I worry about the Chinese models sending data back to China. How do we know that isn't the case?

Depends on how you're running them I suppose. If you are running them on local hardware, then the harness is what you are concerned about. A compromised local model might be able to exfiltrate data via tool calls.

If you are running it in a cloud, the above is true, but also you have to trust the cloud provider isn't relaying your chats to a third party, for training or perusing.

If I am totally blunt, if privacy is a concern then corporate US has proven time and time again to be a terrible steward of your private data. You should assume it's being ingested or sold, or turned into metadata that's sold in a data laundering pipeline.

If it's corporate secrets, on-prem and enterprise offerings are your options. Enterprise at least puts the providers on the hook legally, when they inevitably fuck up keeping your data private in some way.

Re: Open-weight AI is having its Kubernetes moment

#305
post #303

I worry about the Chinese models sending data back to China. How do we know that isn't the case?

Depends on how you're running them I suppose. If you are running them on local hardware, then the harness is what you are concerned about. A compromised local model might be able to exfiltrate data via tool calls. If you are running it in a cloud, the above is true, but also you have to trust the cloud provider isn't relaying your chats to a third party, for training or perusing. If I am totally blunt, if privacy is…

Indeed - if you need to be absolutely confident about security and privacy, run a model locally and audit the inference software and potential tooling.

Re: Open-weight AI is having its Kubernetes moment

#306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What tools do we have to countermeasure the state sponsored bias in the Chinese models? Doesn’t seem like a smart plan if individuals can just compensate for the bias.

I worry that AI will be so fundamental to how we do things in the future, companies can mold human behavior via access to the AI tools. For instance, I worked at FICO. When I mention this, people wonder what they do. The average person only knows FICO as a “score.” FICO was founded in Silicon Valley. The average person doesn’t think about how credit scores work, fundamentally. It’s just software, at its core. FICO in…

It's why they say social credit system is already way more built out in the US than any other part of the world.

Re: Open-weight AI is having its Kubernetes moment

#307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most new markets are funded by initial investment capital. Early entrants operate at a loss as they grow. This isn’t as unusual as some people are trying to make it sound. This has been happening since the dawn of finance. I thought this would be less foreign to everyone since we just went through this whole conversation for a decade with Uber and Lyft. Their demise was predicted from the start from everyone who thou…

Arguably we'd be much better off if none of those would be subsidized by investments, at least not to the "run unprofitable for decade+" level. Because that just absolutely murders any competition that manages to not get that level of free money. You're not pouring money in to make it happen at all at that point, you are pouring money in so nobody else can get the part of the pie. Which is great for investors, bad fo…

Yeah, in the Uber example, Hailo was a great competitor with a franchise model that got destroyed by Ubers essentially infinite capital.

Re: Open-weight AI is having its Kubernetes moment

#308
post #126

Everyone is talking about banning Chinese models but nobody talks how it is feasible to ban them. I think it’s impossible simply because technically there is no such thing as a “Chinese model”. There is no way to tell apart an “American” model from a “Chinese” one by looking at their weights. Weights are just numbers and you can’t assign country of origin to numbers. One can find very easy workarounds to any naive at…

yep. just like how US gov gatekeeped Mythos/Fable and Ant just repackaged them and call it Opus 5.

Re: Open-weight AI is having its Kubernetes moment

#309
post #126

Everyone is talking about banning Chinese models but nobody talks how it is feasible to ban them. I think it’s impossible simply because technically there is no such thing as a “Chinese model”. There is no way to tell apart an “American” model from a “Chinese” one by looking at their weights. Weights are just numbers and you can’t assign country of origin to numbers. One can find very easy workarounds to any naive at…

You can't ban open weight models either because everyone will sell their models for a penny, making them legally proprietary.

Worst case the models will be sold for a fee that covers the training cost. That would actually be much worse for the big players in the long run.

Re: Open-weight AI is having its Kubernetes moment

#310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kubernetes orchestrates your container workloads over a cluster, which consists of virtual/bare metal machines(nodes). This means you can tell the kubernetes API "I want to run a container workload" and it will be started on one of the nodes that form the cluster, unlike e.g. Docker, where a docker daemon belongs to a specific node. If you remove the node your workload is running on from the cluster the workload will…

Thank you for this explanation. It makes sense, but I don't really understand why it has become so popular. Professionally, my experience is that certain software components need to run together on an individual machine (e.g. database server, app server, web server), and then those machines need to be networked in a certain way (e.g. web server talks to app server, which talks to database server), so I really need to…

> Professionally, my experience is that certain software components need to run together on an individual machine (e.g. database server, app server, web server), and then those machines need to be networked in a certain way (e.g. web server talks to app server, which talks to database server).

This (different workload components running on a single machine) is something that kubernetes allows you to disentangle. Kubernetes creates its own network, including cluster internal DNS. Using this you expose e.g. your app servers as a service called my-app, reachable in cluster via my-app.namespace-name.svc.cluster.local.

This targets all containers with a specific label, no matter on which node they run. Server types can be scaled independently, since chances are that the load for each does not scale the same with request volume.

Round robin for DBs does not make much sense, but there are ways to e.g. expose read endpoints with one service, and write endpoints with a different one, with open source tooling which updates the target after a failover.

Kubernetes will automatically keep your services up to date, which means if you increase the replica for e.g. app server the new container will be added as valid target, as soon as it passes ready checks, and if one container fails these checks they are temporarily removed as target. The kubernetes components will also automatically "self-heal" things like a crashed container or a failed node, by restarting the container or rescheduling the workloads on the failed node to a different one, without human intervention.

This is of course very basic, but you can finetune these by e.g. configuring that a specific server type should be spread out, i.e. that only one replica(container) should be scheduled per node, to ensure it stays available if one or more nodes go down. Or add network policies to ensure only the app server is allowed to talk to the DB server.

If your concern is latency between app and db you can have specific config that ensures that your app server containers are only scheduled on nodes where a DB server is already running, and that the traffic from app to DB is always routed to the DB instance that is on the same node (people use similar mechanisms for cloud providers like AWS, where you want to have routing rules ensuring that traffic is always sent to targets in the same AZ, to avoid cross-AZ network charges).

These advanced examples obviously require deeper kubernetes knowledge and are not something one should just try out the first time you deploy kubernetes.

Having worked with more traditional setups I do think it is often easier to configure config like this in the standardized kubernetes API rather than in e.g. nginx config + deployment scripts + idk, systemd-unit. But this point is not "having thousand of nodes" and be half the size of google.

It also depends on your team, if you have an infra team that has a stable way to manage your VMs and apps, all the power to them, replacing them all with k8s experts sure won't give you much. It isn't easy to get an unbiased opinion about when to switch, since you need knowledge of kubernetes and your current infra to make a fair comparison, and kubernetes experts probably want to sell you kubernetes. Using a handcrafted system to distribute a lot of containers over multiple VMs to ensure HA is in general a good sign to evaluate kubernetes ;)

And being on-premise makes kubernetes attractive earlier, since the bigger cloud providers have managed solutions for a lot of things kubernetes helps you with (auto scaling, load balancing, managed container platforms like AWS ECS or Google Cloud Run)

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