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Taylor Farms Called White House to Try to Delay Cyclospora Recall

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Re: Taylor Farms Called White House to Try to Delay Cyclospora Recall

#221

Post by themaninthedark »

lovich wrote: post #210
themaninthedark wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't gaslight. It was very possible at the beginning of COVID that it was an airborne virus. However the CDC proclaimed that there was no evidence, therefore no one should wear masks. https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/cdc-reverses-agai... >In March 2020, as the pandemic began, Anthony Fauci, the chief medical adviser to the president of the United States, explained in a 60 Minutes interview that he felt com…

Cool, so they admitted to falsehoods or updating. This admin does not. The anti vaxxers and people not trusting this admin are not equivalent

You're initial comment was:

>> FDA says... >This admin has lied repeatedly. Why would any of us believe a statement solely because the admin said it? Do we need to give them the benefit of the doubt despite how many times they lie?

The fact of the matter is that both sets of officials lied.

Fauci only admitted to lying when he was brought in front of congress and there was a chance they were going to prosecute him if he lied to them.

We will see what this admin does if they ever get brought up to task.

Fauci thought his intentions were noble.

RFK Jr. believes the same I am sure.

Doesn't make either of them right, understanding why the other side is/was upset is the first step to fixing the problem.

If you can't see the equivalence between saying don't trust the government because it's lying and don't trust the government because it's lying there is nothing that will convince you.

Re: Taylor Farms Called White House to Try to Delay Cyclospora Recall

#222

Post by Terr_ »

roughly wrote: post #62
Terr_ wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So it’s a false positive? They already told you clearly, so it sounds like you're trying to browbeat them with a fallacy of equivocation over the scope of "it". These things are not equivalent: 1. A biological test for a parasite in a sample of equipment/material from the factory. (Claimed as false-positive.) 2. The analysis of the supply-chain for the food that sickened people which led to that facility as a commo…

Christ, man, hasn’t the McStabberson family been through enough? Do you not have the decency to finally bring this witch hunt to an end?!

Meh, I don't see how I could make anything worse, with how they were featured in Leave it to Cleaver, and recently dissed in that song by the Full-Tang Clan.

Re: Taylor Farms Called White House to Try to Delay Cyclospora Recall

#223

Post by lovich »

themaninthedark wrote: post #221
lovich wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cool, so they admitted to falsehoods or updating. This admin does not. The anti vaxxers and people not trusting this admin are not equivalent

You're initial comment was: >> FDA says... >This admin has lied repeatedly. Why would any of us believe a statement solely because the admin said it? Do we need to give them the benefit of the doubt despite how many times they lie? The fact of the matter is that both sets of officials lied. Fauci only admitted to lying when he was brought in front of congress and there was a chance they were going to prosecute him if…

And you said

> This is the same argument that the anti-vaxers had about the COVID vaccine.

It’s not the same argument because one group is a true believer who will never admit fault. The other isnt. There is no equivalence to people who believe in anti vaxx ideology and people who don’t believe in RFK jr.

Re: Taylor Farms Called White House to Try to Delay Cyclospora Recall

#224

Post by pstuart »

noduerme wrote: post #207
pstuart wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I've read about GOF research, it's essentially explored in defensive posture, because viruses mutate and they're looking at how to get ahead of the curve (not a researcher, just my take). But what is never discussed in the Lab Leak pursuit is: so what? I mean, yes, poor biosecurity and containment should be called out and not covered up, but the real value is in being the foundation of a conspiracy. "The go…

I don't think it was a conspiracy to make people sick. I also don't think the lab leak theory should be a partisan issue. I was in the camp at the time shouting that we needed to enforce masking and stay-at-home orders, and to say that the Trump admin bungled the response is too kind. What was a conspiracy was the cover-up by health officials who knew that it had escaped a lab. And by the Chinese government, which kn…

It's still conjecture. I'm well aware of confirmation bias (that we're all susceptible to), but a recent query of the Goog says it's unclear and leans towards a natural mutation.

This does a good job of painting that picture: https://skeptoid.com/episodes/933

But this also returns to the "so what" path. The conspiracy paints GOF as "evil government doing bad things" (which is not unreasonable conjecture in many contexts), but the work is primarily intended for defensive measures:

https://asm.org/getmedia/ef3e09db-a3c3-4eff-8e73-5d7edbcabb4...

Search Google for this: "did the us outsource GOF research into sars to wuhan labs in china"

I found the answer to be reasonable and credible. Again, governments lie but so do conspiracy theories.

To make this more HN aligned I'll share a story:

I was introduced to Chuck Peddle at a wedding not long after the turn of the century. I first learned assembly language on the 6502 so I knew who he was and was thrilled to meet him and hear his stories. At that point in time he was working on some hardware startup in Malaysia (IIRC), and was a seasoned world traveller.

The last part of our conversation was his observation through his travels that due to the nature of overcrowded cities in third world countries and the advent of air travel where people could disperse rapidly to anywhere else in the world, he shared a fear that a deadly outbreak would eventually happen and would travel the world in days, with horrifying consequences.

That came to mind when Covid happened.

Lastly, I'm not at all fond of these types of conspiracies because they spread like a virus and their value is primarily in giving people the feeling that they know what's going on and they know better than everyone else -- and it becomes such a part of their identity that trying to debunk that conspiracy is only perceived as a personal attack -- there's no room for reason.

All of this "the truth is out there" while we have real conspiracies happening in broad daylight and people just shrug like "oh, that just happens, whatever". I'm referring to the current US presidential administration.

Re: Taylor Farms Called White House to Try to Delay Cyclospora Recall

#225

Post by themaninthedark »

lovich wrote: post #223
themaninthedark wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're initial comment was: >> FDA says... >This admin has lied repeatedly. Why would any of us believe a statement solely because the admin said it? Do we need to give them the benefit of the doubt despite how many times they lie? The fact of the matter is that both sets of officials lied. Fauci only admitted to lying when he was brought in front of congress and there was a chance they were going to prosecute him if…

And you said > This is the same argument that the anti-vaxers had about the COVID vaccine. It’s not the same argument because one group is a true believer who will never admit fault. The other isnt. There is no equivalence to people who believe in anti vaxx ideology and people who don’t believe in RFK jr.

Yes it is because the argument is that you can't trust the government because they lied.

>Comments on YouTube videos during the COVID-19 pandemic clustered similarly around "concerns about side-effects, effectiveness, and lack of trust in corporations and government".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-vaccine_activism

I don't share the same believes as anti-vaxers but I do believe that their cause was bolster by the government deliberately lying.

In the very early days of COVID, there were numerous studies that backed up the government position that COVID was not spread via airborne route.

>Airborne transmission, either by droplets (route 3) or by aerosol (route 4), contributes less than 1% of the total viruses needed to cause an infection....This finding is consistent with studies that sampled the air where symptomatic COVID-19 patients reside and found that all collected samples were negative for SARS-CoV-2

But earlier it even states:

>Due to the fact that most of these estimates were made in countries that lead a public health policy of immediate isolation of cases upon symptoms’ onset, these estimates represent the effect of pre-symptomatic carrier transmission. In fact, pre-symptomatic transmission was recently referred to as the Achilles’ heel of COVID-19 pandemic control, as symptom-based detection of infection is less effective in comparison to the control of the SARS epidemic in 2003

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.12.20099085v...

So we know that pre-symptomatic transmission is the primary driver but claim it's not airborne because we sampled air of symptomatic patients.

This was the quality of the "Science" that we were supposed to believe.

When you have the scientific establishment publishing what amounts to bullshit to back up the lies of government how can you trust it in the future?

Andrew Wakefield study is discredited, I am not aware of any others but there may be.

I doubt that I am going to change your mind that the argument you presented is the same as anti-vaxers. But my advice remains the same, become a domain expert or be close friends with one you can trust.

I have several family member in the medical field, when the push for adolescent vaccine began some of them quietly cautioned me about the risks that were being downplayed. I read through the studies and made my own decision. Just as I made my own decision about wearing a mask when the government was telling me it increased my risk of infection.

Re: Taylor Farms Called White House to Try to Delay Cyclospora Recall

#226

Post by noduerme »

pstuart wrote: post #224
noduerme wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it was a conspiracy to make people sick. I also don't think the lab leak theory should be a partisan issue. I was in the camp at the time shouting that we needed to enforce masking and stay-at-home orders, and to say that the Trump admin bungled the response is too kind. What was a conspiracy was the cover-up by health officials who knew that it had escaped a lab. And by the Chinese government, which kn…

It's still conjecture. I'm well aware of confirmation bias (that we're all susceptible to), but a recent query of the Goog says it's unclear and leans towards a natural mutation. This does a good job of painting that picture: https://skeptoid.com/episodes/933 But this also returns to the "so what" path. The conspiracy paints GOF as "evil government doing bad things" (which is not unreasonable conjecture in many conte…

Once again, I'm not an identitarian, nor was I trying to personally attack anyone, nor is my take on what happened an attempt to gain a sense of control over my environment (anymore than anyone's attempt to understand anything is an attempt to prepare oneself for future events). I find that your need to skew the conversation toward my personal psychology actually is a form of ad hominem, and your own anectdotes or what you found on Google have no relevance other than speciously attempting to increase your credibility in this conversation.

I think my point stands that once a gain of function-mediated virus escaped a lab, the incentives aligned in such a way that the people and the government responsible for that fuckup took steps to cover it up, and that is a perfectly logical and reasonable conclusion.

Re: Taylor Farms Called White House to Try to Delay Cyclospora Recall

#227

Post by Tostino »

duskdozer wrote: post #103
rland wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s so unbelievably destructive. We had a kid recently and I was looking up vaccine research. Do we have to prod the kid with the Hepatitis B vaccine at birth? I looked it up and promptly said, “well, CDC actually just came out with a thing that says it’s optional.” Wife turned to me and said, uh yeah, and who is the new director of the HHS now? Looked it up, and I come to find that many scientists were opposed to t…

Uhh, I'll just say please run your AI chatbot medical research by your wife first.

I read the AI chatbot part as sarcasm fwiw.

Re: Taylor Farms Called White House to Try to Delay Cyclospora Recall

#228

Post by irishcoffee »

close04 wrote: post #212
irishcoffee wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole thing is cringe to read. I don’t care if people hate Americans, but their stance is just… yeah cringe, I don’t have a better word for it.

Of course you care. Enough to play the victim game and cry people “hate Americans” every time someone criticizes anything about (specific) Americans. Talk about cringe.

Nah. Don’t care. Really don’t. My life is pretty great, people across the pond pissed off mean literally nothing to me.

Re: Taylor Farms Called White House to Try to Delay Cyclospora Recall

#229

Post by pstuart »

noduerme wrote: post #226
pstuart wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's still conjecture. I'm well aware of confirmation bias (that we're all susceptible to), but a recent query of the Goog says it's unclear and leans towards a natural mutation. This does a good job of painting that picture: https://skeptoid.com/episodes/933 But this also returns to the "so what" path. The conspiracy paints GOF as "evil government doing bad things" (which is not unreasonable conjecture in many conte…

Once again, I'm not an identitarian, nor was I trying to personally attack anyone, nor is my take on what happened an attempt to gain a sense of control over my environment (anymore than anyone's attempt to understand anything is an attempt to prepare oneself for future events). I find that your need to skew the conversation toward my personal psychology actually is a form of ad hominem, and your own anectdotes or wh…

I'm sorry if it came across that way, I was addressing the issue and my frustrations with the community that pursue it -- I did not have you in mind personally at all, just the topic.

I absolutely agree that government coverups are absolutely unacceptable.

I state my conclusion as "it seems to be this way" whereas I read you as saying "no, it was this, case closed".

Intent matters. In the courtroom and out of it. My frustration is that (from my perspective) the intent behind the lab leak theory is to turn it into a government plot against the people (and yes, those can happen), and that the whole affair of dealing with Covid was a nefarious plot to harm the population and importantly to force vaccines upon the masses.

As the purported incident happened in China, there will likely never be any admission or redress. And the torches and pitchforks will continue coming for vaccine research. And I have every right to be less than happy about that.

Re: Taylor Farms Called White House to Try to Delay Cyclospora Recall

#230

Post by neumann »

jm4 wrote: post #21
ashleyn wrote: post #16

Only slightly unrelated, but I've been thinking a lot lately about prion disease and whether or not you can still trust the meat you eat. Easily a food safety concern that is ten times worse than getting a little diarrhea from your salad, and the same institutional rot can contribute to it. And it would take 5-10 years to really see the damage done from it.

A guy gets a worm in his brain, somehow becomes secretary of health, loosens all the rules so the rest of us have a higher chance of getting a brain worm. This is comic book villain kind of stuff. Can we start a serious discussion about whether we might be living in a simulation with a troll teenager at the controls?

Maybe it's the worm doing it?
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