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The growing vigilante movement to knock out Flock surveillance cameras

theguardian.com

111–120 of 179 posts

Re: The growing vigilante movement to knock out Flock surveillance cameras

#111
post #99
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the governed unless the governed have no issues that that lead to speach/action What about if the speech is censored, shadow-banned, limited etc in some other ways? Where the governed does not know their speech was limited in reach, censored etc? (which btw is a real approach social media companies are taking today).

What's actually more dangerous isn't shadow banning it's angel banning. With the ability to manufacture agents that simulate positive user feedback while making your posts hidden - Twitter was experimenting with this years ago.

Ah I can agree with that. It sounds like of like astroturfing as well, but we have AI now so it's probably AI generated. I've been noticing content that felt like this a while ago on different social medias, including hacker news, I think today they are hardly discernible from humans.

edit: like as an example, ironically, your posts or mine could be an example of that.

edit2: I'm the human mannan my account is linked to, no agent talks on my behalf on my social media yet.

Re: The growing vigilante movement to knock out Flock surveillance cameras

#112

I think I may have a minority view about surveillance. At least I need someone to explain something to me. Is the backlash really about privacy, or is the real problem a complete lack of trust in government? Because if I thought someone would actually use the cameras to enforce the law, that's not actually such a bad outcome. You aren't supposed to speed, you aren't supposed to let your dog poop without cleaning up a…

There are many things that are technically illegal but arguably should not be.

For example, there's a small local park near me that serves as a handy shortcut between two different neighborhoods, but technically nobody is allowed to enter it between 11pm and 6am. The assumption is that if you're in a park during these hours, it must be for some nefarious purpose.

The problem with arguments like yours is the implied premise everyone must be surveilled because they are potential criminals who just haven't been caught yet, the exact opposite of the legal presumption of innocence and the founding values of the US (other countries' mores about the default moral state of humanity vary, of course). It's only a short leap from arguing that if everyone needs to be surveilled for everyone else's safety, then being surveillable by being out and about at the wrong time of day is itself suspicious, and that curfew should be the default.

Surprisingly, some 70-80% of US cities have curfew rules of some kind (usually against minors) and they're often ramped up significantly in response emergencies. Most other developed countries just don't have curfews. European countries have business regulations like barring minors from some businesses such as nightclubs, but US-style curfews do not exist. A Swiss town (interlaken) that voted to impose them had to hire private security guards because the police refused to enforce the rule. Curfews are somewhat common in developing nations like the Philippines and Thailand, but again don't really exist in developed nations in Asia. I didn't do an exhaustive global survery, but to my general knowledge the US is an outlier in this regard.

The fundamental problem with the curfew mentality is this assumption of malignity, and there's no end to it once you introduce it. Suppose we claim that crime has fallen since security cameras were deployed. And yet, there's still some crime and not all of it appears on our public camera network! It turns out quite a lot of crimes are committed in private. Maybe we should just put cameras inside people's homes - after all, why would anyone object...unless they wanted to commit crime? Maybe we should do away with warrants - they're time-consuming to apply for and create paperwork (we hate bureaucracy, don't we folks). Sure they're in the constitution, but haven't you noticed how people who insist on seeing a warrant always turn out to be the worst sort of people? Obviously innocent people would welcome the police into their home, and take pride in demonstrating their innocence. Why, I think most right-thinking folks would be prepared to sacrifice some of their own liberty if it meant catching just one extra criminal.

Re: The growing vigilante movement to knock out Flock surveillance cameras

#113
post #27

Flock was pitched as the triumph of technology over criminality. It's surveillance network was supposed to end crime. However, when people witness extreme criminality thriving unpunished at the top levels of U.S. politics, the lie becomes evident. Flock isn't about ending crime. It's a tool of control to be used by criminals. Who watches the watchers? Everyone .

It's a nice idea. Everything is backwards right now. It should to be the other way around: random citizens should be essentially anonymous while all members of the government are surveilled 24/7. Surveillance should scale with power.

It's legal for anyone to do what Flock did

Re: The growing vigilante movement to knock out Flock surveillance cameras

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As someone who’s had bikes stolen and car broken into, I sympathize with the desire for surveillance (especially in San Francisco). That isn't what it is being used for. That would still require cops to be investigating petty theft as if they cared about it.

> That isn't what it is being used for. I'm not sure if you know what you're talking about? Flock cameras have definitely involved in detecting people who come into SF in stolen cars or with stolen plates, who proceed to go on sprees of breaking into cars and stealing things. I really dislike Flock as a company, but their cameras absolutely do get used in the way they're publicly pitched. Flock doing bad things does…

You said it - they only care when it's a spree.

Re: The growing vigilante movement to knock out Flock surveillance cameras

#115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it would be kind of different if people were having cars broken into less often or bikes returned after being stolen But it's clear that increased surveillance hasn't been leading to stolen property being recovered.

Yea, that's the thing: I could almost get behind mass surveillance if it actually solved crime. Probably not, but almost. But it doesn't! Having a camera on every street corner doesn't do anything to solve crime if the police won't look at it and actually follow up. So we get the downsides of mass surveillance without any upside. Same thing with things like "find my iPhone". Great in theory, but if your phone actuall…

the cops were in the apartment where my phone was stolen when my phone was stolen and had a video recording of it getting stolen clearly showing the person who stole it who was known to the police because it was the person the police were called about.

I said: can you get my phone back? They said: use find my, then come to the police station. I did. The police said: sorry, this location only shows the building and not the apartment, so we can't enter the apartment and get your phone

Re: The growing vigilante movement to knock out Flock surveillance cameras

#116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea, that's the thing: I could almost get behind mass surveillance if it actually solved crime. Probably not, but almost. But it doesn't! Having a camera on every street corner doesn't do anything to solve crime if the police won't look at it and actually follow up. So we get the downsides of mass surveillance without any upside. Same thing with things like "find my iPhone". Great in theory, but if your phone actuall…

Take a lesson from the UK where there are cameras everywhere. Brothers van parked in London. Window broken, bag stolen off front seat. Right under camera. He calls police and miracle of miracles they actually attend. Must have been in the area. Plod:"Shouldn't have left your bag on view" Bro:"Can you check the CCTV" Plod:"You watch too much TV mate, we don't have time for that" But cameras will one day help catch a m…

Tell them someone said "from the river to the sea". They'll drop everything to look.

Re: The growing vigilante movement to knock out Flock surveillance cameras

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I put privacy over ending crime. That’s the unspoken stance everyone needs to decide on. Ubiquitous surveillance will end most crime but do we want that if the cost is our privacy?

The optimal amount of crime is non-zero. We can "catch all criminals" quite easily, just install a totalitarian state panopticon where everybody is guilty by default and constantly surveilled by an omniscient intelligence apparatus, problem solved. People are going to need to accept some amount of crime if they want to have some semblance of freedom and basic human dignity. https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/opti…

You can't even fix broken laws without crime. Alcohol prohibition wouldn't have ended if everyone followed it.

Re: The growing vigilante movement to knock out Flock surveillance cameras

#119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That isn't what it is being used for. I'm not sure if you know what you're talking about? Flock cameras have definitely involved in detecting people who come into SF in stolen cars or with stolen plates, who proceed to go on sprees of breaking into cars and stealing things. I really dislike Flock as a company, but their cameras absolutely do get used in the way they're publicly pitched. Flock doing bad things does…

You said it - they only care when it's a spree.

and one with a plate that's already reported stolen. trnslation: it's a zero effort publicity project.

Re: The growing vigilante movement to knock out Flock surveillance cameras

#120
post #15
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the governed unless the governed have no issues that that lead to speach/action What about if the speech is censored, shadow-banned, limited etc in some other ways? Where the governed does not know their speech was limited in reach, censored etc? (which btw is a real approach social media companies are taking today).

Theyll see no effect of their speech, and try something else. Like voting, protests, and violence. In thay order

Soapbox, ballot box, jury box, ammo box - the four boxes of liberty
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