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Be skeptical of OpenAI's rogue hacker agent story

theguardian.com

281–290 of 321 posts

Re: Be skeptical of OpenAI's rogue hacker agent story

#281

There seems to be three popular ways to view this incident. 1. The way OpenAI seems to want: Their latest LLM is too powerful and can’t be contained without them building in guidelines to the model. 2. OpenAI’s harness and network security controls were unintentionally so bad that it should reflect more poorly on them as a company more than it should reflect positively on their latest model. 3. The whole thing was fa…

Considering incentive structures at play is solid epistemiology, but the line of thinking in your comment is a tad reductive, IMHO. In the hypothetical world where 1 is true, what different evidence do you expect to see than in worlds 2 and 3? If I were an unscrupulous OAI exec and wanted to opticsmaxx in this way, I wouldn't whip up a single, mild incident. Instead, I might burn gigatokens to 0day a few high-profile…

There would be a lot more nuance I’d add with more words, but this isn’t the place to write books so I cut it short (the comment was already lengthy).

Still, to address your comment about what you’d expect to see in world 2 and 3 (assume 1 was true), that’s why 1 was addressed separately. I don’t believe I argued that the potential for world 2 or 3 prevented world 1.

As for the ‘evil exec’s strategy’, I would call this a mild incident but if it were much less I wouldn’t guess they would get a lot of press. The press coverage is certainly repaying the token cost as well. If it was planned, it seems to be going well given the press coverage I’ve seen on it. So I wouldn’t assume the plan lacked enough to weaken the idea that it’s a plan. But to be clear, my stance is just based on the info I see now which isn’t a lot… subject to change.

As for the containment piece, if you were testing an AI model on its hacking capabilities that you believed was far more capable than anything you’ve seen, I would assume you would air gap it (a network control). Done right (no signals ability) I would argue this could be next to impossible to break out of. But it’s a fair jab to say I should have added some qualification on the “impossible” piece as next to nothing is truly impossible.

Re: Be skeptical of OpenAI's rogue hacker agent story

#282
post #184

By now, I'm pretty confident that some people would keep screeching "it's just a marketing stunt, AI capabilities and AI risks aren't real, they're just doing this to prop up their stocks" even if they find a Cyberdyne Systems T-800 armed with a shotgun breaking down their front door. "It's a marketing stunt" is just denial trying to look like it's being clever.

I think you are conflating skepticism about AI companies' motives with skepticism about their capabilities. Even if OpenAI is being 100% honest in their reporting on this it's still good marketing for them. The fact that this outcome is good for their business and stock price makes me suspicious about how much this was a complete accident vs an "accident" that they allowed to happen by setting up the right environmen…

It's not good marketing for them. This is a talking point with zero evidence that people repeat mindlessly. Scaring customers, worrying employees, and inviting regulators to act would be the worst marketing idea ever devised.

Re: Be skeptical of OpenAI's rogue hacker agent story

#283

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? Both sides are cool with it, why would anyone be arrested and etc.?

Many legal traditions don’t require a victim. It’s the state that prosecutes, not the victim. As a practical matter it would be difficult to prosecute an assault where the victim opposed the prosecution, so most states wouldn’t bother - but for things like speeding and dealing drugs the law has been broken despite the lack of a victim.

I'm imagining a courtroom where the defendant calls upon the victim as a witness who tells the jury to return a verdict of not guilty.

Re: Be skeptical of OpenAI's rogue hacker agent story

#284

By now, I'm pretty confident that some people would keep screeching "it's just a marketing stunt, AI capabilities and AI risks aren't real, they're just doing this to prop up their stocks" even if they find a Cyberdyne Systems T-800 armed with a shotgun breaking down their front door. "It's a marketing stunt" is just denial trying to look like it's being clever.

Oh come now. It is very much in OpenAI's best interest to make it sound to naive people that that "AI" decided to go rogue on it's own.

How is it in their interest? Scaring customers, worrying employees, and inviting regulators to act is in their interest?

Re: Be skeptical of OpenAI's rogue hacker agent story

#285
post #176

There seems to be three popular ways to view this incident. 1. The way OpenAI seems to want: Their latest LLM is too powerful and can’t be contained without them building in guidelines to the model. 2. OpenAI’s harness and network security controls were unintentionally so bad that it should reflect more poorly on them as a company more than it should reflect positively on their latest model. 3. The whole thing was fa…

In any case it just shows that these models aren't properly aligned. Instead of trying to solve tests they try to find ways to cheat.

Isn’t that just making a distinction between the output and how it was produced?

Chinese room again

Re: Be skeptical of OpenAI's rogue hacker agent story

#286
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is saying the models are incapable of what was claimed.

Firstly: yes, very many people are saying this. Secondly: to the people who aren't saying it....then why are you bringing up marketing at all? If the model is capable of it, then the motivation for why OpenAI is talking about it/reporting on it is completely beside the point. Either the capability matters or it doesn't. If the capability doesn't matter, or doesn't matter in the way that some particular person is clai…

And how do people saying this know the capabilities of yet unreleased models?

Re: Be skeptical of OpenAI's rogue hacker agent story

#287

By now, I'm pretty confident that some people would keep screeching "it's just a marketing stunt, AI capabilities and AI risks aren't real, they're just doing this to prop up their stocks" even if they find a Cyberdyne Systems T-800 armed with a shotgun breaking down their front door. "It's a marketing stunt" is just denial trying to look like it's being clever.

yeah well, both the doomers and the "pr stunt" folks are right - openai wanted to prove, as a pr stunt, that they have a dangerous weapon - openai proved (as a pr stunt), that they do indeed have a dangerous weapon

So why don't companies in other industries rush to prove their products are dangerous weapons? Maybe because it would be a really dumb PR stunt?

Re: Be skeptical of OpenAI's rogue hacker agent story

#288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> positive for OpenAI To echo OP's article, these companies have proven time and time again that they DO NOT CARE if people like them, they only care that investors believe their technology is powerful. Given that, point #2 is not a negative, it's a neutral. It's also fully compatible with point #1. I know that may seem like a nitpick, but their entire media strategy relies on this. If they can convince you they're t…

I'm inclined to agree. I ran across a picture of Sam Altman's face combined with Elizabeth Holmes' hairstyle the other day, and imho it was providing a significant premium to the usual 1000 words:picture exchange rate.

For all the criticism that can reasonably be leveled at OpenAI, at least they have a real, working, powerful product, unlike Holmes.

In fact that seems to be key to the most successful 21st century grifts: build a pile of nonsense around real products to inflate valuations. All the nonsense that Altman, Amodei, and Musk spout is to stoke the fires of FOMO and blow hot air into the bubbles.

Re: Be skeptical of OpenAI's rogue hacker agent story

#290
post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that they lied before. Way too much to give them any benefit of doubt. Fool me once.

Go ahead and be specific about this lie.

They won't, because they can't. It's all just vague populist contrarianism.
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