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If coding has been solved, why does software keep getting worse?

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Re: If coding has been solved, why does software keep getting worse?

#331

Post by xingped »

mancerayder wrote: post #277

> We’ve reached a point where an update to macOS — or to any app I rely on, really — is a source of dread rather than excitement. I now expect the new version to be worse. I actually relate to that. It used to be cool and exciting to update to see what new things are coming for free. I was just looking up what Fedora Workstation 45 might bring. Updates on phones, TV's, cars and non-Linux operating systems on PC's/lap…

Yep, this 100%. When I see a "pending update" notification or icon somewhere, the first thing I think is "I don't want to update, they're just going to break something new". I _hate_ updates now. Doesn't matter what software it is, with the small exception of video games. (Except Dead By Daylight. Behavior, the devs, are the most hilariously incompetent devs on the planet, but at least their incompetence is confined to their own game.)

Re: If coding has been solved, why does software keep getting worse?

#332

Post by zem »

altruios wrote: post #312
zem wrote: post #308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You know what software doesn't fill me with dread to update? FOSS. speak for your clearly non-pulseaudio-using self (:

pulse audio's pain points were in setup for me, and in setup alone. using it has been a breeze.

an update last year broke some laptop microphone settings that in 30 years of using linux I had had no reason to even know existed. took me literally a couple of weeks to figure out what was going on and fix it. it was admittedly the first time in many years that it broke anything, but when it did it did so in style.

Re: If coding has been solved, why does software keep getting worse?

#334

Post by dimbletimbers »

Decabytes wrote: post #319

Software quality is tied to the market incentives and always has been. AI isn’t going to make someone care about writing robust software and that is why we don’t see better software all of a sudden. The market doesn’t rewards apps that don’t break on every update, it doesn’t reward cobbling together multiple independent solutions, as opposed to using Microsoft as a one stop shop. If people could have gotten away with…

But maybe that’s bad? Maybe keeping everyone just on the verge of leaving or getting hurt isn’t a good place for society to settle?

Re: If coding has been solved, why does software keep getting worse?

#335

Post by johnnyanmac »

chasd00 wrote: post #282
steveBK123 wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Product guys always optimizing for green status reports over actual working products that please customers.

and software devs think their direct deposit every 2 weeks will always just magically appear. /i'm an old developer but most have no clue their paycheck comes from actually selling things and not just from typing on the keyboard.

>their paycheck comes from actually selling things and not just from typing on the keyboard.

It's not even "selling things" these days. It's pleasing shareholders. That's why even productive engineers can get laid off these days. The incentive to type on keyboards or even sell things are not aligned with what the market wants at the moment.

Re: If coding has been solved, why does software keep getting worse?

#336

Post by metalspot »

Decabytes wrote: post #319

Software quality is tied to the market incentives and always has been. AI isn’t going to make someone care about writing robust software and that is why we don’t see better software all of a sudden. The market doesn’t rewards apps that don’t break on every update, it doesn’t reward cobbling together multiple independent solutions, as opposed to using Microsoft as a one stop shop. If people could have gotten away with…

The problem is that the cost curve for completeness/correctness goes asymptotic at 90-99% so the cost up building complete/correct software is never worth it from a revenue perspective, and only happens if there is significant liability risk from defects.

Re: If coding has been solved, why does software keep getting worse?

#337

Post by solaire_oa »

taurath wrote: post #304
solaire_oa wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I generally agree that software has been getting worse, and AI isn't the cause, necessarily, but certainly is accelerating the decay. Maybe a corollary to the growth of programmers is that pride/artisanship in the work decreases. Bugs happen more when the engineers dgaf, or aren't as dedicated to the craft. Software was pretty solid when I was a teenager (I'm thinking Windows, MSN Messenger, Flash, CDs, general web u…

Artisanship takes a back seat to the business peoples demands, and the business oriented people have been melding with software people for decades. Still, classes of bugs we used to have all the time are not very common anymore. But watching large software projects fail over and over again, even when craftsmanship is demanded, often times the only way that good stuff gets in is the unpaid heroics of developers passio…

Yeah. Maybe to add to that: I like my current job, and I consider myself a steward of the codebases that I'm a stakeholder in (I want it to be good).

There's little space for stewardship when LLMs induce psychosis and learned-carelessness in peers, so even though I'm here, I'm still motivated, and I'm still trying to stop crappy software (usually in code review), it feels like it is going to be a losing battle in the long run. The point being that "so little stability" with respect to financial stability may not necessarily factor- stability is threatened from all angles (code, motivation, fatigue, identity, etc).

Re: If coding has been solved, why does software keep getting worse?

#339

Post by geophph »

ratelimitsteve wrote: post #218
frameset wrote: post #37

> I opened Slack on macOS, the icon kept bouncing in the dock for a few seconds. I got impatient, switched to Ghostty, and started typing. Just then, the Slack window appeared, stole focus from Ghostty and the git pull command was sent to the group chat. One of my absolute favourite features on KDE Plasma with Wayland is the global setting to control what can steal focus. It works wonderfully, and I always miss it wh…

I am doing my best to implement a rule with apps where the third time in a single session you bother me about something that has absolutely nothing to do with the workflow I opened to app for, I uninstall the app. I don't want to update my spreadsheet app, I want to work on this spreadsheet. I don't want to tour the new features from the last update, I want to work on this spreadsheet. I don't want to sign in in orde…

I’d have no software installed after a week!

Re: If coding has been solved, why does software keep getting worse?

#340

Post by xorcist »

layer8 wrote: post #248
timedude wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uncle Bob has fully embraced AI and is risking becoming part of the problem these days.

Uncle Bob already became part of the problem by some of the stuff he wrote in Clean Code (like using mutable instance fields instead of method parameters). Luckily he isn’t perceived as very relevant anymore.

Or ever. If we want to some colleague to tell us what is good code and what isn't, can we please pick someone who at least once demonstratably delivered good software? Bonus points if it was a group effort, and if it was on time.

Common for all these "industry leaders" is that they all write books and give speeches. I'd rather listen to someone who designed successful software such as git or OpenSSH than someone who designed a salary system in the 90s which, it turns out, was scrapped two years later for being a mess. Giving yourself a stage name is not a merit in itself.

There is something to be said for actually understanding the problem first. Did we learn nothing from the TDD nonsense in the 00s?

The famous InfoQ sudoku software design example was chronicled on HN here and should be required reading for anyone who cares about clean code in practice:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3033446

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