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Government orders GitHub to remove Bluetooth-based chat app Bitchat: Jack Dorsey

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Re: Government orders GitHub to remove Bluetooth-based chat app Bitchat: Jack Dorsey

#161

Post by bryanrasmussen »

anon291 wrote: post #157
paxys wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s funny because the Indian independence movement was a failure. Indians protested non-violently and sometimes violently for over a hundred years, and British control (first through the East India company and then directly by the crown) kept increasing with every passing year, eventually encompassing the entire subcontinent. India eventually gained independence because colonialism in general was not politically and…

People greatly misunderstand the Indian independence movement. The early Indian activists merely wanted India to have a devolved legislature like present-day Scotland and Wales, or like Canada and Australia used to have. It was relatively late that anyone really wanted independence. I think many of them still wanted to be a constituent state of the UK. People always forget that Gandhi's first actions as a 'nationalis…

arguably the American colonies wanted the same thing. What is it with these colonizers that they don't want that!?

Re: Government orders GitHub to remove Bluetooth-based chat app Bitchat: Jack Dorsey

#162

Post by tavavex »

abernard1 wrote: post #141
nozzlegear wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some relevant wisdom from the founding fathers of the United States: When asked about when kind of government the founding fathers had created, Ben Franklin replied "A Republic, if you can keep it." On democracy, John Adams wrote: "Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide." Thomas Jefferson further wrote that "The t…

John Adams wrote that as a reason why the United States is not a democracy. It's a Constitutional Republic. It's a consistent theme throughout the Federalist Papers. Individual States and localities have elements of democracy, but the US—built upon knowledge of Rome—is not. The United States of America is the second iteration of American government, after the one that failed in 1787. The arguments leading up to the 1…

> It's a Constitutional Republic.

Which is a kind of democracy. Democracy is a broad term describing all forms of government where power is granted by the people. This is a weird framing that I see brought up by Americans only, and I don't understand it, because direct democracies (what these Americans are actually referring to when they say 'democracy') are basically extinct in the modern world. They keep trying to distance themselves from the term. Most democratic nations today are presidential or parliamentary republics, just like you, or something that can be approximated to one of them. I'm doubtful that the US founders didn't recognize they were founding a democratic nation, just a specific subcategory - but ultimately still a state that should hopefully answer to the people.

Neither does federalism relate to the form of government - you could have a federal or distributed direct democracy if you wanted to. They're just different categories of things, the way you choose how to best represent the will of a group of people is a different question from how you subdivide these groups into self-governing blocks.

Re: Government orders GitHub to remove Bluetooth-based chat app Bitchat: Jack Dorsey

#163

Post by adityaathalye »

iambenm wrote: post #17

India is pretty serious about being able to monitor all communications after the terror attacks in Mumbai in 2008. The terrorists used satellite phones to coordinate the attack. As a result, they banned most satellite communication devices. I learned about this earlier this year because I had a connecting flight through India on the way to go trekking in the Himalayas. I had planned to take a Garmin inReach with me,…

The terrorists were only able to do so because mass-media news was live broadcasting everything on the air, and the terrorists holed up with hostages in the hotel were able to follow the blow-by-blow live.

(edit: i.e. SatCom alone can't do much, if there is no verifiable on-ground intel. And in 2008, our mass-media supplied it in liberal quantities, through multiple camera angles and replays and blow-by-blow commentaries.)

cf. Westpoint's Urban Warfare Project Case Study #16: Mumbai Terrorist Attacks: https://mwi.westpoint.edu/urban-warfare-project-case-study-1...

> Maintaining communications with their handlers in Pakistan was critical for several reasons. First, the handlers were monitoring live Indian news broadcasts and social media feeds, so they could provide real-time instructions throughout the operation and thus afford the attackers the ability to react to developments outside their targets.

> The communication also provided the attackers psychological support.

> The handlers were able to encourage the young, inexperienced militants to maintain their resolve and continue killing civilians and security forces by reinforcing their religious and financial motivations.

> During the operation, the handlers actively coached some of the attackers to continue shooting civilians and to hold positions against Indian security force responders.

Re: Government orders GitHub to remove Bluetooth-based chat app Bitchat: Jack Dorsey

#164

Post by anon291 »

bryanrasmussen wrote: post #161
anon291 wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People greatly misunderstand the Indian independence movement. The early Indian activists merely wanted India to have a devolved legislature like present-day Scotland and Wales, or like Canada and Australia used to have. It was relatively late that anyone really wanted independence. I think many of them still wanted to be a constituent state of the UK. People always forget that Gandhi's first actions as a 'nationalis…

arguably the American colonies wanted the same thing. What is it with these colonizers that they don't want that!?

It is simply not true to the same degree. The American colonies believed the King of England had violated their rights as Englishmen, Indian independence activists simply wanted Indians to have the same rights as other citizens of the UK and subjects of the British crown. The Indian independence movement started as a mirror of the Irish self-rule movement.

Re: Government orders GitHub to remove Bluetooth-based chat app Bitchat: Jack Dorsey

#165

Post by ted_dunning »

mothballed wrote: post #88
close04 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or fly a plane or drone overhead and see [0] where the terminals are. After a few fines most people would decide it’s not worth the risk. I remember how the Uber rollout worked in Berlin. Uber said they don’t need to comply with anything the city asked for and enjoyed their position in the safety of an ocean away so the local authorities instituted eye watering fines for drivers caught providing Uber rides. Uber deci…

I can see how that worked in Berlin. In USA or someplace with a healthier culture of resistance that would fail laughably. Americans will drive with no license, registration, in cars they've stolen back from the repo man because they refuse to pay anything to anyone. When my car was totalled by an illegal alien, the police didn't even show up, wisely because they were surely driving without license, identity document…

Albania and Georgia have much healthier culture of resistance than the US.

The US has almost entirely lost this culture except for short moments in isolated places. Minneapolis is nearly a proof by exception in this. Very, very few people need to be detained or killed to get the mass of Americans to stay inside and self-censor. Much less is required to get businesses to put their head down and play nice with the government.

Re: Government orders GitHub to remove Bluetooth-based chat app Bitchat: Jack Dorsey

#166

Post by tavavex »

viktorcode wrote: post #76

> the app enables communication even during network restrictions and creates a substantial risk of misuse by anti-national elements, terrorist organisations, organised criminal groups and cyber criminals seeking to evade lawful detection and continue communication despite legally imposed restrictions. This mouthful boils down to exactly this: a form of communication not controlled by the government creates a risk for…

I wonder how long it's going to take until we have universal communication monitoring, including in real life. It's not an impossible technical challenge, it's just a question of time. Every spoken word recorded forever and scrutinized. After all forms of distant private communication fall, the spoken word will be the last one remaining. And all these arguments they're making apply to it, too.

Re: Government orders GitHub to remove Bluetooth-based chat app Bitchat: Jack Dorsey

#167

Post by em-bee »

gowld wrote: post #142
wiskinator wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have the citations to back this up anymore than you did, but it was also passed because of the rise in Black Power movements walking around with guns. I used to be an obnoxious gun control advocate until I learned that California's gun control legislation was brought about in response to the Black Panther's patrolling predominantly black neighborhoods while armed to protect the people of the neighborhood from…

Most nations with gun control apply gun control to the street police also.

most nations with gun control do not need people to protect themselves against police violence. that's the real problem here.

Re: Government orders GitHub to remove Bluetooth-based chat app Bitchat: Jack Dorsey

#168

Post by ted_dunning »

ecshafer wrote: post #68
lava_pidgeon wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh boy , this is American exceptionalism at its finest. The US has by far the most authoritarian government of all mentioned entities. Really you should protest against your government.

How many people has the US sent to jail due to saying naughty things on Twitter vs the UK? If were going to speak of authoritarianism. Just due to ensuring free speech and right to bear arms the US is possibly the least authoritarian developed nation outside of maybe Switzerland.

Alex Pretti would like a word.

Re: Government orders GitHub to remove Bluetooth-based chat app Bitchat: Jack Dorsey

#169

Post by iamnothere »

hdgvhicv wrote: post #155
morkalork wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ages ago there was a Russian citizen they wanted who was flying to the Caribbean. His flight had a surprise landing in Florida with the FBI waiting on the tarmac.

Belarus the same https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryanair_Flight_4978 Flying over a country does not make you immune to that country’s laws.

You know, this wasn’t always the state of things. This is a choice we’ve made.

Frankly, temporary transit through a nation’s airspace (while onboard a commercial jet that you don’t control) shouldn’t subject you to their legal jurisdiction.

Shall we revoke the concept of diplomatic immunity next? Close the embassies?

We seem to be unlearning all the hard lessons of the past. It’s not going to end well.

Re: Government orders GitHub to remove Bluetooth-based chat app Bitchat: Jack Dorsey

#170

Post by ted_dunning »

nozzlegear wrote: post #152
abernard1 wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

John Adams wrote that as a reason why the United States is not a democracy. It's a Constitutional Republic. It's a consistent theme throughout the Federalist Papers. Individual States and localities have elements of democracy, but the US—built upon knowledge of Rome—is not. The United States of America is the second iteration of American government, after the one that failed in 1787. The arguments leading up to the 1…

Great point about what Adams is actually arguing! Of course, I know the country was founded as/is a Constitutional Republic, but it's always interesting to see how much our modern (American) understanding of democracy differs from how the founders understood it – and also how they shaped the fact that most of us now equate Constitutional Republic with the best form of democracy.

Define "most" and "us".

If us means humans living in democracies, I would say that parliamentary democracy has more supporters and constitutional republics.

And even if us == the US, I would argue that most US citizens actually have only a very hazy idea about how their own system of government works, much less how others work. Most of these people think that chanting "USA, USA" in unison is democracy.

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