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Nvidia, Microsoft, Meta warn against overregulating open-weight models

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Re: Nvidia, Microsoft, Meta warn against overregulating open-weight models

#61

Post by chasd00 »

austin-schick wrote: post #33

I'm finding the list of signatories on this letter really interesting and somewhat confusing, looking purely through the lens of economic interest. It makes sense to see Meta, the startups, and the VC firms on this list. And it makes sense to see OpenAI, Anthropic, and Google all missing. Microsoft is somewhat unexpected to me. I don't think of them as having a focus on open weight models (no more than Google), and t…

> The call to action is all about keeping the American open weights ecosystem competitive. I didn't even realize that was under threat, so I feel like I'm missing something.

OpenAI and Anthropic can bring American open-weight model providers like Meta to court but not the Chinese. Chinese companies breaking American IP law (whether the law is correct or not) are basically immune. This has been going on forever, I guess enough is at stake finally for the federal government to care.

Re: Nvidia, Microsoft, Meta warn against overregulating open-weight models

#62

Post by chasd00 »

some_furry wrote: post #5

I don't personally have a horse in this race, but if you want to accurately predict the next step: Start with the outcome you believe will be the most in line with the spirit and traditions of the open source community. This is precisely what won't happen. It won't necessarily be the inverse. It could be, of course, but it's also likely to be a compromise between the two. For a topical example: The companies doing "A…

> Start with the outcome you believe will be the most in line with the spirit and traditions of the open source community

there's nothing open source about an open weight model. It's more like the binary blobs Linux fought so hard against. If you can't compile, or in this case train, from source then you're missing the "source" part of open source.

Re: Nvidia, Microsoft, Meta warn against overregulating open-weight models

#63

Post by daveguy »

lenerdenator wrote: post #50
throwaway323929 wrote: post #43

[flagged]

I thought the whole point of open software development was anyone could take your thing and improve it. It would seem as if the community either isn't doing that or is relying on the Chinese to do that.

I thought this would be a push for a nationwide open weights effort / initiative, but I was surprised to see this:

> Distillation ... reflects a long tradition of learning from, building upon, and improving existing technologies, a tradition that has helped drive innovation since the rise of the open-source software movement. By contrast, unlawful efforts to extract value from closed models raise legitimate concerns. Those concerns should be addressed through targeted legal and commercial frameworks rather than sweeping restrictions on techniques that play an important role in AI innovation.

Sounds like they are saying "please protect our IP theft" that created closed weight frontier models in case we arbitrarily decide to close our models. But don't get rid of distillations in general so that we can all also keep benefiting from open models. We don't want to lose the ability to benefit from the work of others as we launder IP into closed models.

Surprised Linux Foundation kept their name on it with that.

Re: Nvidia, Microsoft, Meta warn against overregulating open-weight models

#64

Post by fidotron »

lenerdenator wrote: post #53
fidotron wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the same patronizing nonsense as when all the US webcos pulled out of the Chinese market in some misguided supposed protest believing the Chinese so incapable of rolling their own Google, Amazon or WhatsApp they will come begging the americans to go back. Now the western tech universe goes to China for ideas.

If by "pulled out of the Chinese market" you mean "were hacked by the Chinese government in a way that compromised their intellectual property and the safety of dissidents", then yes [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Aurora

The point is did the US reaction work or was it completely counter productive?

Then will attempting to cutoff China again today work or do we expect that also will prove to achieve the exact opposite of what its proponents are claiming?

Re: Nvidia, Microsoft, Meta warn against overregulating open-weight models

#66

Post by chasd00 »

pegasus wrote: post #60
throwaway323929 wrote: post #43

[flagged]

Regardless of the motivations behind the paper, the fact is that they are right. It's a topsy-turvy world where America closes up and China opens, and I hope it gets corrected soon. And besides, it seems to me like the ethical choice. Given how these models are, in some very real sense, mechanical plagiators, built on the generosity of creators past and present, some of them now in danger of being replaced by the mac…

well let's be clear, there's nothing open about an open-weight model.

To me, "open these models up. " must mean provide all the data and supporting documentation required to reproduce the model. That would be "open". Postgres is open because you can download all the data and supporting documentation and reproduce the binary yourself. However, being able to only download a postgres binary would make it no longer open.

Additional training on top of an open-weight model sounds analogous to writing mods for minecraft. You may change some behavior but that doesn't make minecraft "open".

Re: Nvidia, Microsoft, Meta warn against overregulating open-weight models

#67

Post by chasd00 »

daveguy wrote: post #63
lenerdenator wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought the whole point of open software development was anyone could take your thing and improve it. It would seem as if the community either isn't doing that or is relying on the Chinese to do that.

I thought this would be a push for a nationwide open weights effort / initiative, but I was surprised to see this: > Distillation ... reflects a long tradition of learning from, building upon, and improving existing technologies, a tradition that has helped drive innovation since the rise of the open-source software movement. By contrast, unlawful efforts to extract value from closed models raise legitimate concerns.…

"..a tradition that has helped drive innovation since the rise of the open-source software"

i've said this in other comments but the fact that these companies are trying to align with open-source when there's no "source" included with their models is pretty damning. I think it lays bare the absence of any kind of noble or righteous motive with respect to distillation.

Re: Nvidia, Microsoft, Meta warn against overregulating open-weight models

#68

Post by some_furry »

chasd00 wrote: post #62
some_furry wrote: post #5

I don't personally have a horse in this race, but if you want to accurately predict the next step: Start with the outcome you believe will be the most in line with the spirit and traditions of the open source community. This is precisely what won't happen. It won't necessarily be the inverse. It could be, of course, but it's also likely to be a compromise between the two. For a topical example: The companies doing "A…

> Start with the outcome you believe will be the most in line with the spirit and traditions of the open source community there's nothing open source about an open weight model. It's more like the binary blobs Linux fought so hard against. If you can't compile, or in this case train, from source then you're missing the "source" part of open source.

To be clear: This isn't a technical discussion, it's a political one.

While your point is valid on its own merits, it isn't relevant here.

Re: Nvidia, Microsoft, Meta warn against overregulating open-weight models

#69

Post by chasd00 »

gaigalas wrote: post #8

> Open source did more than lower the cost of software; it created a shared foundation of knowledge on which generations of American engineers and entrepreneurs built their institutional sovereignty Hey nvidia, what about making your full set of linux drivers open source? I mean, I do agree that being open is important but you're hijacking the narrative here, and I suspect being open have nothing to do with any of th…

i'm glad someone else sees this too. There's nothing open source about an open-weight model. I feel like they're just trying to associate themselves with open source and the positive impacts it has had on software technolgoy.
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