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Show HN: Echo – Fable-level results at 1/3 the cost using open-weight models

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Re: Show HN: Echo – Fable-level results at 1/3 the cost using open-weight models

#211

Post by RugnirViking »

troupo wrote: post #173
user_7832 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Small feedback: the "create password" requires a symbol too, which Google's password manager by default does not use. I'm fairly sure a double-digit-level alphanumeric jumble is sufficient to be a password (or at least, Google thinks so). Great idea nonetheless!

> I'm fairly sure a double-digit-level alphanumeric jumble is sufficient to be a password This isn't required either. Of course there's an xlcd for that: https://xkcd.com/936/ Besides, --- start quote --- Using complexity requirements (that is, where staff can only use passwords that are suitably complex) is a poor defence against guessing attacks. It places an extra burden on users, many of whom will use predictable…

This. The siren song of "oh but increasing the number of characters makes brute forcing harder exponentially" is defeated in practice by the fact that everybody's password is following a few predictable patterns. You know what else increases the complexity exponentially? Longer passwords

Re: Show HN: Echo – Fable-level results at 1/3 the cost using open-weight models

#212

Post by jorisw »

troupo wrote: post #173
user_7832 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Small feedback: the "create password" requires a symbol too, which Google's password manager by default does not use. I'm fairly sure a double-digit-level alphanumeric jumble is sufficient to be a password (or at least, Google thinks so). Great idea nonetheless!

> I'm fairly sure a double-digit-level alphanumeric jumble is sufficient to be a password This isn't required either. Of course there's an xlcd for that: https://xkcd.com/936/ Besides, --- start quote --- Using complexity requirements (that is, where staff can only use passwords that are suitably complex) is a poor defence against guessing attacks. It places an extra burden on users, many of whom will use predictable…

Seconded

https://blog.codinghorror.com/password-rules-are-bullshit/

Re: Show HN: Echo – Fable-level results at 1/3 the cost using open-weight models

#213

Post by kamranjon »

adam_rida wrote: post #114

thanks to everyone for taking the time to try Echo and share feedback, this is precisely why i wanted to launch early. i am going to try to address a couple of topics that came up often: - i'll keep publishing stronger evals, including more difficult coding and agentic benchmarks, to map out more precisely the differences with sota - the public eval dashboard will keep expanding and be updated (very open to more benc…

You keep saying open weights - but you aren't sharing any information on which models you are using. What benefit does using open weights models provide to the end user if there is zero transparency?

Re: Show HN: Echo – Fable-level results at 1/3 the cost using open-weight models

#214

Post by onlyrealcuzzo »

joe_the_user wrote: post #146
onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dogpile was only a good idea while Search Engines were mostly trash. You needed to search all of them to find something decent. That's roughly analogous to today. Ignoring cost, you'd be way better off asking all the LLMs to solve a problem (like coding) where you can verify the answer. So the question is, for things like that -> can a group of models perform better than frontier models, especially at a reasonable co…

Dogpile was only a good idea while Search Engines were mostly trash. Well, search engines are trash again. Perhaps it should come back

> Well, search engines are trash again.

That's mostly because the ability to make money on the web made the web trash.

When you couldn't monetize your websites, everyone's websites were passion projects.

Now everyone is trying to figure out how they can make $8M a year off yet another recipe website.

Re: Show HN: Echo – Fable-level results at 1/3 the cost using open-weight models

#215

Post by user_7832 »

troupo wrote: post #173
user_7832 wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Small feedback: the "create password" requires a symbol too, which Google's password manager by default does not use. I'm fairly sure a double-digit-level alphanumeric jumble is sufficient to be a password (or at least, Google thinks so). Great idea nonetheless!

> I'm fairly sure a double-digit-level alphanumeric jumble is sufficient to be a password This isn't required either. Of course there's an xlcd for that: https://xkcd.com/936/ Besides, --- start quote --- Using complexity requirements (that is, where staff can only use passwords that are suitably complex) is a poor defence against guessing attacks. It places an extra burden on users, many of whom will use predictable…

> This isn't required either. Of course there's an xlcd for that: https://xkcd.com/936/

Oh, I'm well aware (with the concept and comic both). My passwords that I set for myself almost always are like that. It's just that I wasn't sure if OP was aware of it, due to what their site was asking.

Re: Show HN: Echo – Fable-level results at 1/3 the cost using open-weight models

#216

Post by mattjoyce »

jambalaya8 wrote: post #150
stilesja wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I burned though my weekly fable usage last night on the $200 plan. I had $200 in promotional usage credits and was in the middle of executing a moderate sized coding plan. Ran on usage credits for about 1h 15m and burned $120 in usage credits. I was astounded to see how fast the $ usage added up. One problem was that I was using sub-agent execution so multiple agents were running simultaneously and I realized at the…

I am too young (most of us on here are) to have lived through the paying for time on time-share machines in the 60s/70s, but this is giving me creepy memories of paying for sprintnet/telenet and tymnet... And I guess aol, compuserv, delphi. Are we really doing this computing model again?

well spotted, I couldn't place the feeling, me it's like paying per minute phone costs when downloading on a modem. You know it will cost, but you do it anyway.

The other weird thing about the subs is that if the agents aren't grinding if feels like I'm losing money.

Re: Show HN: Echo – Fable-level results at 1/3 the cost using open-weight models

#217

Post by afzalive »

adam_rida wrote: post #114

thanks to everyone for taking the time to try Echo and share feedback, this is precisely why i wanted to launch early. i am going to try to address a couple of topics that came up often: - i'll keep publishing stronger evals, including more difficult coding and agentic benchmarks, to map out more precisely the differences with sota - the public eval dashboard will keep expanding and be updated (very open to more benc…

Remove the dark pattern

Re: Show HN: Echo – Fable-level results at 1/3 the cost using open-weight models

#218

Post by ciefa »

fmx wrote: post #196

A "Message Echo" textbox that makes it look like you can get a response to a prompt without logging in, only to redirect to the sign-up page. Such a classic dark pattern - and such a sure way to get me to leave your site immediately. I've literally taken one step on your website - the one your site design invited me to take - and immediately got tripped up. I'm not coming back.

Yep, same. I hate these dark patterns so much and I genuinely couldn't care less about this product anymore :D

Re: Show HN: Echo – Fable-level results at 1/3 the cost using open-weight models

#219

Post by ciefa »

adam_rida wrote: post #114

thanks to everyone for taking the time to try Echo and share feedback, this is precisely why i wanted to launch early. i am going to try to address a couple of topics that came up often: - i'll keep publishing stronger evals, including more difficult coding and agentic benchmarks, to map out more precisely the differences with sota - the public eval dashboard will keep expanding and be updated (very open to more benc…

Why the dark pattern?

You had my interest, now not anymore.

Re: Show HN: Echo – Fable-level results at 1/3 the cost using open-weight models

#220

Post by bitexploder »

RugnirViking wrote: post #211
troupo wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm fairly sure a double-digit-level alphanumeric jumble is sufficient to be a password This isn't required either. Of course there's an xlcd for that: https://xkcd.com/936/ Besides, --- start quote --- Using complexity requirements (that is, where staff can only use passwords that are suitably complex) is a poor defence against guessing attacks. It places an extra burden on users, many of whom will use predictable…

This. The siren song of "oh but increasing the number of characters makes brute forcing harder exponentially" is defeated in practice by the fact that everybody's password is following a few predictable patterns. You know what else increases the complexity exponentially? Longer passwords

You know what else increases the odds you can’t brute force it? Not having one :)

Seriously though, the best password boxes are one that have an entropy meter and check that your password has never been in a breach.

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