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AI Companies Are Trying to Hide a Staggering Amount of Debt

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361–370 of 407 posts

Re: AI Companies Are Trying to Hide a Staggering Amount of Debt

#361
post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is why you keep 3-5 years of spending money in cash (or a bond ladder if you want to be fancy).

3 to 5 years of cash or a bond ladder won't help in a 1970s stagflation scenario.

At the extreme end of this, realise that absolutely nothing is safe.

Re: AI Companies Are Trying to Hide a Staggering Amount of Debt

#362
post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s probably not even a good idea to try and defend against the bubble by switching up your stock allocation. After all the whole reason passive investing works is that active investment rarely beats the market and if you’ve just been in SPY the whole time it’s unlike you have any edge to gain by switching to an active strategy every time fear creeps up

All of that is only true if the market is sufficiently diversified and not manipulated for profit extraction. Right now it's not clear that is true.

It’s one thing to predict a crash, it’s another to actually make money off of it. If you’ve watched The Big Short even those who predicted the housing crisis correctly nearly lost their shirt before and after it happened because timing the crash is the hard part. There is a whole body of research showing that passive strategies outperform active after crashes

Re: AI Companies Are Trying to Hide a Staggering Amount of Debt

#363
post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you consider bonds usury?

Because bonds involve interest. Per Summa Theologica: > To take usury for money lent is unjust in itself, because this is to sell what does not exist, and this evidently leads to inequality which is contrary to justice. https://www.newadvent.org/summa/3078.htm …Aquinas expands the analysis but it is relatively straightforward: all interest is usury. Personally, I find it helpful to imagine two hypothetical persons re…

The borrower is buying time. I’m glad I can buy something that I value now, rather than wait. That is useful to me, and I’m happy to pay for it

Re: AI Companies Are Trying to Hide a Staggering Amount of Debt

#364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your error here, or the missing piece if we're generous, is what people are spending money on. Health care is astronomically more expensive here. Schooling isn't free after high school. Day care isn't free. Hell, even property taxes are simply 'not a thing' in France or the UK, where the taxes and Council Tax, respectively, are a tiny fraction of what Americans pay in property taxes ---- which, of course, pay for the…

>Your error here, or the missing piece if we're generous, is what people are spending money on. Health care is astronomically more expensive here. Schooling isn't free after high school. Day care isn't free. Hell, even property taxes are simply 'not a thing' in France or the UK, where the taxes and Council Tax, respectively, are a tiny fraction of what Americans pay in property taxes ---- which, of course, pay for th…

I took the liberty of computing my and my wife’s effective income tax burden:

24%

We are both German and in the 92nd percentile of the income distribution.

Re: AI Companies Are Trying to Hide a Staggering Amount of Debt

#365
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These companies have valuations reflecting a debt light business. At a minimum, 420 billion in debt is enough to change the stock price by 10-20%. If the company plans to add another 400 billion in debt you need to give it the side eye. If 50 billion in revenue is from other companies debt spending… then You have a problem.

These companies have valuations reflecting a debt light business. It's more to do with growth rate in my opinion.

To be precise, market perception of future growth.

All other things being equal, debt is a downward force on that perception.

That is a general point, although I'll stipulate it isn't a factor in AI picks because they are approximately all doing the same and because the market is giddy with FOMO. More strongly, i believe that some Schmanthropic with equivalent offering and unit cost and userbase but with sustainable finance would signal, through lack of recklessness, that it is not "going to the moon". I'm willing to call this "irrationality". But hey, I'm not exposed, other than being a taxpayer with savings who will inevitably foot the bill for the bailouts.

Re: AI Companies Are Trying to Hide a Staggering Amount of Debt

#366
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the point is that it’s not showing up on the standard financial filings. If you were to pull the annual reports for these companies, you wouldn’t see it. That doesn’t mean it’s impossible to find it. Obviously, it is otherwise the article wouldn’t have been written. But you’re going to have to go the extra mile. To be clear, none of this is illegal. It’s just covered in the advanced CFO accounting class.

It's not hidden at all. Financial blogs very accessible to laymen like Matt Levine's Money Stuff have talked about this structure months ago. If you are an investor and surprised by this news you weren't sufficiently prepared and shouldn't have been investing in the first place.

I'm with you inasmuch as the frothiness is, while massaged a bit, sufficiently perceptible for emptors to caveat.

My concern is that the subprime mortgages were not perceptible to even savvy fund managers, and the same thing could happen again; and also, even if that insidious risk-poisoning of institutional funds does not occur, them a collapsing bubble still fucks us all into recession.

Re: AI Companies Are Trying to Hide a Staggering Amount of Debt

#367
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it didn't matter, why would they bother jumping through hoops to keep the debt off their balance sheet? In the run-up to 2008 a big factor in the bubble forming was that poor quality loans were packaged in a way to hide the risk in those investments. I'm not expert enough in finance to know if it's the case now, but we do know that clever accounting to hide debt can lead to the incorrect valuation of assets, poten…

Because this isnt actaully debt. Almost all of it is agreements to pay for completed datacenters from developers. Its just a way to offload operational risk when constructing datacenters. If the construction somehow fails theyre not stuck with the bill.

According to ciphertalk, VCs charging high premiums: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48917135

Re: AI Companies Are Trying to Hide a Staggering Amount of Debt

#368
post #45
post #23

Are they really "trying to hide" this debt? I think it's pretty common knowledge that a lot of these companies are using debt/bonds for funding. The debt not showing up where the author wants is a reporting formality not an attempt to hide it.

I think the point is that it’s not showing up on the standard financial filings. If you were to pull the annual reports for these companies, you wouldn’t see it. That doesn’t mean it’s impossible to find it. Obviously, it is otherwise the article wouldn’t have been written. But you’re going to have to go the extra mile. To be clear, none of this is illegal. It’s just covered in the advanced CFO accounting class.

For a lay person (without background in finances) what AI companies are doing looks very similar in spirit to what Enron did and Enron actions were deemed not legal.

Re: AI Companies Are Trying to Hide a Staggering Amount of Debt

#369
post #61

Do they? Is a company with $200 billion annual revenue and earnings (EBITDA) of $100 billion having $420 billion of off-balance-sheet debt really staggering? In many other industries that would be a perfectly normal amount of debt to have. It's only unusual because we are used to tech companies having so much cash on hand they don't know where to put it

It is not just that they have the debt, it. is they are trying to hide the debt. Why would a legitimate company try to hide their debt?

[dead]

Re: AI Companies Are Trying to Hide a Staggering Amount of Debt

#370
post #266

If you're talking about dodgy accounting at hyperscalers, a larger worry might be that they are overstating profits by depreciating their assets (such as datacenters and CPUs/GPUs) too slowly. Estimates are that this could overstate profits by tens of percent. (However, this only allows earnings to be "pulled forward" - sooner or later the servers must be written off and the accounting catches up.) See e.g. https://d…

H100 rental costs are increasing. If anything those GPUs should not be marked down at all. Burry is wrong.

Is this true? The best data I could find is that A100 costs are decreasing slightly, H100's have been holding steady and B-series have been increasing?
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