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AI Companies Are Trying to Hide a Staggering Amount of Debt

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Re: AI Companies Are Trying to Hide a Staggering Amount of Debt

#341
post #266

If you're talking about dodgy accounting at hyperscalers, a larger worry might be that they are overstating profits by depreciating their assets (such as datacenters and CPUs/GPUs) too slowly. Estimates are that this could overstate profits by tens of percent. (However, this only allows earnings to be "pulled forward" - sooner or later the servers must be written off and the accounting catches up.) See e.g. https://d…

H100 rental costs are increasing.

If anything those GPUs should not be marked down at all.

Burry is wrong.

Re: AI Companies Are Trying to Hide a Staggering Amount of Debt

#342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes and no. With 82 billion in cash and 22billion profit per year, they can easily service it for a while even if AI consumption takes a downturn.

That's their quarterly profit.

yeah my read is that this industry was for a long time underlevered; these companies were generating so much cash that the only meaningful candidates for investment were in effect moonshots with highly unpredictable returns, and you can't fund those bets with debt.

but now the story is different. while the effects of ai on other industries and classes may be unpredictable, (a) the tendency toward ai itself (the market demand for economically useful intelligence) seems plausibly more inevitable than any tendency in the history of capitalism (certainly more inevitable than any in the history of these big tech companies) and (b) the technical scaling laws have been eerily steady (intelligence as log of compute). taken together, (a) and (b) make it much easier to finance than anything meta or google or microsoft have ever worked on. there are risks, but there is at least also a model, a projection; that model did not formerly exist, for these companies. anything outside their core business was literally a guess.

the upshot of these stabilizing patterns is that the industry is in a certain sense just maturing. that is, its financial profile is starting to look more like other mature industries that are mostly juggling around known quantities to try to get a small edge that they can, with financial leverage, magnify enough to M&A the competition away and thereby secure the only relief possible in a well-delineated, well-populated niche: monopoly by scale/consolidation rather than by differentiation. (which is not to say that these mature industries are less competitive! they are actually more competitive; the intensity of the competition is what drives the "anti-competitive" behavior.)

Re: AI Companies Are Trying to Hide a Staggering Amount of Debt

#343
post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you consider bonds usury?

Because bonds involve interest. Per Summa Theologica: > To take usury for money lent is unjust in itself, because this is to sell what does not exist, and this evidently leads to inequality which is contrary to justice. https://www.newadvent.org/summa/3078.htm …Aquinas expands the analysis but it is relatively straightforward: all interest is usury. Personally, I find it helpful to imagine two hypothetical persons re…

But, there is no fixed quantity of money in modern finance. It's created every someone or some business takes out a loan from a bank, and every time the government spends money. It's destroyed when the loans are repaid or taxes are paid.

Re: AI Companies Are Trying to Hide a Staggering Amount of Debt

#344
post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tangentially: I think a lot of people forget/underestimate the degree to which the industries behind their job are ones that they need to diversify away-from. In other words, a programmer should invest a bit more away from software than average, a realtor should invest a bit more away from properties than average, a coal-miner should invest a bit more away from energy and mining, etc. If you have your job, you can we…

it's also why you shouldn't hold equity in your own company any longer than necessary (e.g., an apple employee shouldn't tie up the majority of their networth in apple stock).

My go-to example is always Enron, and the impact on employees whose retirement funds were in their own too-awesome-to-fail employer.

Oh, sure, it's way worse because of the fraud-angle, but even if it had just been a more honest kind of mania, the arrangement was reckless and bad.

Re: AI Companies Are Trying to Hide a Staggering Amount of Debt

#345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>in effect asking for more units of money than actually exist in the whole system. Depends on how you define the 'whole system'. If I borrow $100 and make $110, the latter didn't appear out of nowhere. The lender, too, could have turned that $100 into $110. Why shouldn't they be compensated for that opportunity cost?

The opportunity cost point is fair enough if one is thinking in terms of two concrete individuals. The illustration I offered was meant at a more abstract level, the two persons standing in for the creditor side and the debtor side of a closed economy taken as wholes. In that framing the issue is not whether a particular borrower can put the money to productive use (clearly he can), but that the system as a whole is…

Buying a bond at a discount is no different than buying at face value and paying back with interest.

Any claims that there is any important difference is sophistry.

Re: AI Companies Are Trying to Hide a Staggering Amount of Debt

#346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because bonds involve interest. Per Summa Theologica: > To take usury for money lent is unjust in itself, because this is to sell what does not exist, and this evidently leads to inequality which is contrary to justice. https://www.newadvent.org/summa/3078.htm …Aquinas expands the analysis but it is relatively straightforward: all interest is usury. Personally, I find it helpful to imagine two hypothetical persons re…

But, there is no fixed quantity of money in modern finance. It's created every someone or some business takes out a loan from a bank, and every time the government spends money. It's destroyed when the loans are repaid or taxes are paid.

Infinite money is worthless. modern finance is bunk and infinite currency chasing finite energy is all there is.

Re: AI Companies Are Trying to Hide a Staggering Amount of Debt

#347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NVidia makes up 7.5% of the SP500. If it lost 50%, it would be a 3% loss for the index. The concentration is bad, but it would not cause a drop of 50% retirement funds by itself. If you take an all world index, it's even less. Still, if NVidia lost 50% of their market share, we would probably see a big collapse of the stock market. EDIT: to note, the top ten companies in SP500 make up an unprecedented concentration b…

It is unlikely that a 50% drop in NVidia wouldn't be paired with a significant drop in the valuation of every other company heavily invested in AI.

Of course, but the top ten that make up >30% of the market don't just sell AI. If all of those lost 50% it would be a 15% drop in the index, painful but not jumping-off-building bad

Re: AI Companies Are Trying to Hide a Staggering Amount of Debt

#348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NVidia makes up 7.5% of the SP500. If it lost 50%, it would be a 3% loss for the index. The concentration is bad, but it would not cause a drop of 50% retirement funds by itself. If you take an all world index, it's even less. Still, if NVidia lost 50% of their market share, we would probably see a big collapse of the stock market. EDIT: to note, the top ten companies in SP500 make up an unprecedented concentration b…

Regarding unprecedented concentration, wasn't the nifty fifty era comparable for the top 10, about 40%?

I frankly don't know, the "unprecedented" is something I read in articles but haven't actually investigated.

Re: AI Companies Are Trying to Hide a Staggering Amount of Debt

#349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NVidia makes up 7.5% of the SP500. If it lost 50%, it would be a 3% loss for the index. The concentration is bad, but it would not cause a drop of 50% retirement funds by itself. If you take an all world index, it's even less. Still, if NVidia lost 50% of their market share, we would probably see a big collapse of the stock market. EDIT: to note, the top ten companies in SP500 make up an unprecedented concentration b…

how are they not “mostly AI”?

Amazon, Microsoft, Meta, Alphabet sell a lot more things than AI. They were huge before and would still be huge after.

Do you think iphones and windows™ will stop selling once the ai bubble pops?

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