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Ask HN: Why are US tech workers so pro open borders?
41–50 of 54 posts
Re: Ask HN: Why are US tech workers so pro open borders?
#42Earlier quoted context omitted.
If they can travel that far with so few resources, surely they have some good ideas and can get things done - why do we want to discourage that? If people can come freely, they can leave freely too.
Suicidal empathy...
If you don't like it you can leave (if we had open borders haha)
Re: Ask HN: Why are US tech workers so pro open borders?
#43People support things that sound like a good idea to them, or that have been sold as a good idea to them, especially if they think it won't negatively affect them. It's easy to be pro open borders when you can't see how it would negatively impact you.
You say it clearly does not benefit them, but the problem is that nothing is really clear or obvious about it. There are a lot of different puzzle pieces, history, and order of effects that need to be considered which most people don't.
Re: Ask HN: Why are US tech workers so pro open borders?
#44Earlier quoted context omitted.
There could be a border, where the law and currency change. But people could still be free to cross that border. I don't know what you mean with the russia/Ukraine thing, bringing a tank over the border would obviously be illegal in either legal system.
How about bringing Little Green Men across the border? Isn't stopping that a good idea? Isn't that part of what (current-style) borders are for?
I'm curious about this. Can you explain your viewpoint without asking questions?
Also, do you identify as a "Libertarian" or "paleo-libertarian"? I really think the difference should be more evident in conversations like this.
Re: Ask HN: Why are US tech workers so pro open borders?
#45Earlier quoted context omitted.
How about bringing Little Green Men across the border? Isn't stopping that a good idea? Isn't that part of what (current-style) borders are for?
I'm curious about this. Can you explain your viewpoint without asking questions? Also, do you identify as a "Libertarian" or "paleo-libertarian"? I really think the difference should be more evident in conversations like this.
I'm trying to clarify your position, not mine. No, I can't do that without asking questions.
What I identify with isn't the point. (I identify as neither, BTW.)
Little Green Men, in case you were unclear on what I meant there: So Russia sent a bunch of Russian military, without insignias on, into Ukraine, where they became a "secessionist" movement. But what they really were was a stealth invasion.
So, if you have no borders, how do you stop that? How do you stop armed thugs from somewhere hostile to you from coming over the border, as individuals, and destroying your country?
Or do you oppose the idea of countries? And if you do, then how do you get from where we are currently (as a world of countries, some with hostilities to other countries) to where you would like us to be?
If you want my position, I guess it's that your statement "I am opposed to borders on a fundamental, ideological level. They are an expression of state violence prohibiting natural freedom of movement and trade" may be fine in theory, but is fundamentally unworkable in the real world. I see some specific problems, reasons why I think it can't work. I'm trying to see if you have answers.
Re: Ask HN: Why are US tech workers so pro open borders?
#46Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm curious about this. Can you explain your viewpoint without asking questions? Also, do you identify as a "Libertarian" or "paleo-libertarian"? I really think the difference should be more evident in conversations like this.
I'm trying to clarify your position, not mine. No, I can't do that without asking questions. What I identify with isn't the point. (I identify as neither, BTW.) Little Green Men, in case you were unclear on what I meant there: So Russia sent a bunch of Russian military, without insignias on, into Ukraine, where they became a "secessionist" movement. But what they really were was a stealth invasion. So, if you have no…
No, I am trying to clarify your position and have already given mine. If you were actually unclear, how did you expect a rebuttal to be taken seriously? Pick one, concede the other and we can go from there.
So, I'll ask directly. Are you a paleo-libertarian?
Can you express your viewpoint without questions or using my viewpoint for reference? Does your world view vanish if I am not around?
Re: Ask HN: Why are US tech workers so pro open borders?
#47Uh, what are you talking about?
I know almost no one who supports “open borders.”
Re: Ask HN: Why are US tech workers so pro open borders?
#48Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's not what I am asking. I want to know why US-born people in tech is/was so pro open border when it clearly does not benefit US labor. You don't get a lot of push-back from within tech against these hiring practices.
I used to have more open attitudes, probably mostly stemming from the idea that America should take in the best and the brightest and that was a big driver of Americas rise to power. I sort of see it more like a Trojan horse as used in the last 30 - 40 years.
30 and 40 years ago H-1b visa essentially represented a source of indentured servile class of employee. People with no rights and enough fear to keep their mouths shut. If your trojan horse reference relates to these people getting permanent status and job mobility and leadership positions then sure. I would agree. On the other hand there is no coordinated malice here. Just individuals who graduated from the exploited immigrant to the tech leader who now manages a team of their countrymen hoping for thier own trojan horse opportunity.
Re: Ask HN: Why are US tech workers so pro open borders?
#49Earlier quoted context omitted.
I used to have more open attitudes, probably mostly stemming from the idea that America should take in the best and the brightest and that was a big driver of Americas rise to power. I sort of see it more like a Trojan horse as used in the last 30 - 40 years.
30 and 40 years ago H-1b visa essentially represented a source of indentured servile class of employee. People with no rights and enough fear to keep their mouths shut. If your trojan horse reference relates to these people getting permanent status and job mobility and leadership positions then sure. I would agree. On the other hand there is no coordinated malice here. Just individuals who graduated from the exploite…
I'm not really sure how to clarify what I mean by Trojan horse. I think people respond to incentives so I don't really care how people take advantage of that. I do think that there is some shortsightedness on the part of the people that created the incentives. If not shortsightedness perhaps a cultural cynicism on one or the other side of the exchange.
Re: Ask HN: Why are US tech workers so pro open borders?
#50a) I'm the descendant of immigrants (half of my grandparents were born overseas and naturalized... my grandmother technically naturalized twice), and I can't justify it was fine for them to be here, but it's not fine for others to immigrate. b) A lot of my circle of contacts are immigrants or descendants of recent immigrants. I can't justify it's fine for them to be here, but it's not fine for others to immigrate. c)…
Liechtenstein ain't going to swamp anything tho right? Very long paragraphs for a dumb conclusion.