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Why Are There No Empires in Age of Empires? (2019)

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Re: Why Are There No Empires in Age of Empires? (2019)

#101
I take the authors point about empires being necessarily cosmopolitan, but it’s not as though it’s a new phenomenon that people have a myopic view about what empire is or how they should operate. (Eg, Russification) Its always been true that empires use various means of social engineering to reduce differences in populations to engender a more uniform polity over various time scales (because it’s beneficial to the entity to do so, eg: Spanish and Italian are both just bad latin) It’s also often true that ethnic cleansing does take place. (If empire was just about getting the already existing social structures to work for you, america would look very different). It’s not true that empires are purely extractive on the periphery, otherwise they would only ever be loose confederations with a tax system and a hegemonic central power. Which is sometimes true, but is not what most empires do. Even saying that empire is just about reifying one polity over another doesn’t hold together all that well on closer inspection. It doesn’t explain why, for example, the Roman Empire shifted from being culturally italic and centered in Rome to being centered in Constantinople and culturally Greek. How could the periphery take over the center if it’s a purely extractive enterprise by one group over its periphery?

I guess the point I’m making, is that empires are very complicated, and trying to reduce them to being solely a thing imposed by one group onto a periphery in order to extract resources is almost as reductive as to say they only exist through colonization and genocide.

While it’s reasonable to say that people get their view of the world through media, I think it’s fine that media can contain simplifications of reality. Otherwise I would have to play Europa Universalis, which is boring.

Re: Why Are There No Empires in Age of Empires? (2019)

#102
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. The author mentions "the game is to be understood as an abstraction" as a potential caveat, and then immediately dismisses it with "but I don’t think it goes for Age of Empires."

I don't really get this. It's not like what the author has to say is contingent on displaying it as a failure of Age of Empires. And it really is just over-interpreting the game. No, converting a unit with a priest is not some sort of cultural genocide, this is a game simplified enough so that it can run on a Pentium. How can there be cultural genocide when the simulation is too crude to even include any hint of cult…

Yeah, the article is mostly legitimately interesting facts about historical empires. Framing it around alleged shortcomings of the Age of Empires video games is unnecessary and obtuse.

Re: Why Are There No Empires in Age of Empires? (2019)

#103
post #97

I have never played an AoE game. In Civ, though, if you’re not at least considering conquering other players' cities and adding them to your country you may be playing the game wrong. Sure, in Civ 6 you can win on science, culture, religion, or economics. Conquest is still one method of winning, and those cities you conquer are not your subjects until they are. Cities along a border can even choose to switch loyalty…

My favourite way of playing old Civ 1-3 as a kid was to build a solid circle of units that would gradually expand and move out to fill all the available space.

Eventually you'd own all the land and your units would just be camped along the beachline, enjoying some downtime.

Re: Why Are There No Empires in Age of Empires? (2019)

#104
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever watched The Gladiator? How many of them were black? They were slaves. Do you know how many slaves were black in the Roman empire? More than had American accents I assure you. None of them spoke English either.

> Do you know how many slaves were black in the Roman empire In the Western Mediterranean? Most likely diminishingly few. It’s hard to imagine why would that might not had been the case.

Because the Roman empire included parts of Africa, including importing their slaves.

There were black Roman soldiers posted on Hadrian's Wall in the north of England.

Re: Why Are There No Empires in Age of Empires? (2019)

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm agreeing with you. Rome was the centre of the empire so had every type of person just as London had as the centre of the British empire. And I suppose New York as a major centre of the American empire. Multicultural cities are the rule rather than the exception.

>Rome was the centre of the empire so had every type of person just as London had as the centre of the British empire. And yet the kind of diversity you're probably expecting was incredibly rare in both. There's enough demographic data to know that.

That's such a bizarre statement. Diversity was rare in London? Have you ever been there (I lived there for years).

London is quite possibly the most diverse city in the world.

Edit: I thought perhaps New York might be more diverse, so I hedged but it turns out Toronto is! I would not have guessed.

Re: Why Are There No Empires in Age of Empires? (2019)

#106
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really get this. It's not like what the author has to say is contingent on displaying it as a failure of Age of Empires. And it really is just over-interpreting the game. No, converting a unit with a priest is not some sort of cultural genocide, this is a game simplified enough so that it can run on a Pentium. How can there be cultural genocide when the simulation is too crude to even include any hint of cult…

Yeah, the article is mostly legitimately interesting facts about historical empires. Framing it around alleged shortcomings of the Age of Empires video games is unnecessary and obtuse.

Odd take and deeply dismissive. The author addresses your point already.

Re: Why Are There No Empires in Age of Empires? (2019)

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the article is mostly legitimately interesting facts about historical empires. Framing it around alleged shortcomings of the Age of Empires video games is unnecessary and obtuse.

Odd take and deeply dismissive. The author addresses your point already.

The author addressed it and dismissed it. I think their dismissal is mistaken, so there’s no bonus points for addressing it.

Re: Why Are There No Empires in Age of Empires? (2019)

#108
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you know how many slaves were black in the Roman empire In the Western Mediterranean? Most likely diminishingly few. It’s hard to imagine why would that might not had been the case.

Because the Roman empire included parts of Africa, including importing their slaves. There were black Roman soldiers posted on Hadrian's Wall in the north of England.

That doesn’t mean people were constantly moving around the empire for no particular reason like people are today.

Traveling large distances was expensive and dangerous and fairly rare outside of a few professions. Soldiers being one of them so to an extent that’s feasible

> including importing their slaves

Why would you import someone from Nubia to Western Europe when you have a relatively ample supply of barbarians being trafficked across the border and there is a significant demand for slaves in Egypt and other provinces nearby.

I mean technically you could run into a Black African somewhere in the Roman Empire but outside of exceptional circumstances that would be almost as likely as winning a lottery

Re: Why Are There No Empires in Age of Empires? (2019)

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Odd take and deeply dismissive. The author addresses your point already.

The author addressed it and dismissed it. I think their dismissal is mistaken, so there’s no bonus points for addressing it.

I disagree, and also I'm not here to award points for anything.

Re: Why Are There No Empires in Age of Empires? (2019)

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They would be an oddity. That's often why one got reports of them. Because they were incredibly rare Most of them like septimus severus you mention and the maurorum are north africans and then the historia augusta mentions a single black ethiopian. And it gets some weird amount of focus seemingly purely due to modern sensibilities in an anti racism drive and to create a sense of belonging. Same with how a lot of the…

>And it gets some weird amount of focus seemingly purely due to modern sensibilities in an anti racism drive and to create a sense of belonging. What does it say about people who relentlessly push back on it? It's not like people are arguing Rome had the same make up as the US. The thesis is fairly weak ("a small trickle of black people shows up because Rome was diverse and a unified empire that favors large scale po…

>What does it say about people who relentlessly push back on it?

That they don't like it when you twist and manufacture history for idiological purposes.

>and yet a large contingent of people seem intent on saying "no, not even that". I didn't mention anything about anti-racism drive, that's odd of you to bring it up.

Because typically it is "no, not even that". You get idk how many zeroes behind the decimal marker to describe the percentages and yet they're always massively disporortionally there.

>I didn't mention anything about anti-racism drive, that's odd of you to bring it up.

Because so much of this extreme overrepresentation and twisting comes from american anti racism push and to give a sense of belonging in a eurocentric vision of history. Either that or engagement ragebait (see queen victoria was a black woman, cleopatra was a black woman type stuff). Movies about african slaver kingdoms, movies about british royalty, movies about medieval france, movies about greek mythos now, elves described as white as snow. It becomes impossible to not notice it everywhere.

And then we start seeing it outside of media like i mentioned with the HMS windrush stuff where suddenly the government and BBC starts entirely fabricating history seemingly to justify current migration policy. I pick this as an example because it's more known in the anglo world and is also much more recent and easily debunked but the same goes for random bits of colonial history for other european nations. It becomes so wild, pervasive and ever expanding in such a short period of time that you can't even call it out without sounding like a far right conspiracy nut all of a sudden. Even if you know it's the truth it makes you feel dirty pointing it out, like you're going against the crowd with some easily verifiable stuff. it's a red cloth for some including me.

The winners write history becomes so accutely clear. Except the winners aren't a party in an actual war and nobody reasonable wanted a culture war.

>>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnfBYO53jhg (Africans in Anglo-Saxon England)

So these skeletons had ancestors from sub saharan africa which could refer to a direct or tiered generational migration of very few individuals. It's that it's so extremely rare that makes us take note. Hell it's because it was so extremely rare that we can spot a lot of these differences in incomplete dna and skeletons to begin with.

There are also reports of very few chinese emisaries in the roman republic and similar asian showings. In Britain and italy there were some skeletons that were claimed to be of east asian origin with a more direct link.

I don't think we need this extreme overrepresentation to begin with but why are these people so rare in arthurian fiction, medieval and roman dramas. I don't suddenly see chinese or arabs in outlaw king or what have you. I see a much more contemporary makeup slanted towards the american one and then i see "people are arguing Rome had the same make up as the US." Constantly

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