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Building on ATProto

lukekanies.com

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Re: Building on ATProto

#21

Post by citelao »

verdverm wrote: post #4

This author speaks to me! > it should just be called “private data” > the resulting design looks very hard to build on > Private and public data are basically identical. ... The permission is world-read Way back before Bluesky decided on their own what permissioned data would look like, when the Atmosphere Private Data WG still thought they had a say in the design, I gave a talk on a ReBAC/Zanzibar style system that…

My statement is not super constructive, but yes, I also really liked this article. Local-first, privacy, even the example of managing personal restaurant reviews.

I don't have enough meaningful thoughts here to contribute, but you & OP: I hope we can build a federated protocol for sharing stuff again.

Re: Building on ATProto

#22

Post by billdybas »

ekosz wrote: post #5

Reading articles like this one, I do think people are trying to put a square peg (their applications) through a round hole (ATProto). The ATProto was designed around all data being public. You write public data to a user's PDS and then any application can read that public data and do something with it. If all data was private (encrypted?) by default then that would defeat half of all of ATProto's goals. Imagine someo…

> If you're trying to built a local-first, mostly private service I just don't think the ATProto is the right tool for the job.

I agree! I think the "permissioned data" working group is aiming to solve the middle ground – where you want to broadcast something "publicly" but to a specific audience instead of the whole world (e.g. invite-only event, membership club). It's "private" in the sense it's not open to all but not in the sense that only you can see the data.

Nick Gerakines has been sharing some good examples of what you could build using permissioned data:

- Private Events: https://ngerakines.leaflet.pub/3mqxalpvn4k2e

- Bookmarks: https://ngerakines.leaflet.pub/3mqu653us3k2p

- Community content: https://ngerakines.leaflet.pub/3mqzsstcsok25

- Forums: https://ngerakines.leaflet.pub/3mr3uqjjaxs2d

- Polls: https://ngerakines.leaflet.pub/3mr3waxevjc24

Re: Building on ATProto

#23

Post by SiempreViernes »

verdverm wrote: post #13
embedding-shape wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If all data was private (encrypted?) by default then that would defeat half of all of ATProto's goals. Yeah, this is the reason why I don't understand why they succumbed to the idea ATProto must handle private and has started on work trying to figure it out ( https://atproto.wiki/en/working-groups/private-data ). Instead, focus on just really great public data archiving and displaying, at scale.

> I don't understand why they succumbed to the idea ATProto must handle private The answer is very simple, the people demand it. Technically, or if you squint the right way, it is a new protocol (atp://) that shares some parts with the public side. Notably the relay is out (for now?) and the data lives in a different sqlite table (iirc/aiui).

Yeah, running a social website where you can't write anything in private to just your friends is not very based.

Re: Building on ATProto

#26

Post by pfraze »

Luke's feedback on the permissioned data proposal is pretty interesting. The current proposal has a kind of locational element to permissions, where a record's URI reflects the access control, and I can understand why that would be jarring. I'm talking with the team about whether we think that's something that could change, and what a change like that would cost. We're still in the collecting feedback phase so it's good to hear how it hits people.

Regarding his other concern, I would've loved to make atproto a localfirst protocol -- that's the field the atproto team came from -- but we had to pick & choose where to spend our complexity budget. I wouldn't say it's a nonstarter for the ecosystem; you can use something like iroh in conjuction with atproto to share identities -- dial people at their dids or domain names -- and then commit state to the atproto repo once it's ready to leave your local sync mesh. Maybe that sort of thing makes its way into future versions of the protocol. But, engineering often involves trades, and for the v1 that was one of the trades we had to make.

Re: Building on ATProto

#27

Post by pfraze »

Striving7340 wrote: post #18

ATProto and its advocates increasingly sound like all the crypto-based decentralized platforms that failed. The difference is that crypto people actually had reasons to run nodes, they got paid to, while ATProto expects enthusiasts to do so for the love of the game or act like bluesky and have 99% of the "decentralized" platform on a centralized node. It never catches on with application developers because it require…

We don't even get paid to be in this cult, that's how organic it is

Re: Building on ATProto

#28

Post by jjuel »

arikrahman wrote: post #24

I switched from codeberg to tangled, and the transition couldn't have been smoother. Being on the ATmosphere really helps with peace of mind.

I love tangled, but there are certain repos I don't want public. So with all ATProto data being public you can never have a private repo which is disappointing.

Re: Building on ATProto

#29

Post by verdverm »

pfraze wrote: post #27
Striving7340 wrote: post #18

ATProto and its advocates increasingly sound like all the crypto-based decentralized platforms that failed. The difference is that crypto people actually had reasons to run nodes, they got paid to, while ATProto expects enthusiasts to do so for the love of the game or act like bluesky and have 99% of the "decentralized" platform on a centralized node. It never catches on with application developers because it require…

We don't even get paid to be in this cult, that's how organic it is

the cultiness is why I left crypto and atproto, it plagues many great ideas by creating in and out groups around opinions on the right way to do things

Re: Building on ATProto

#30

Post by pfraze »

verdverm wrote: post #29
pfraze wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't even get paid to be in this cult, that's how organic it is

the cultiness is why I left crypto and atproto, it plagues many great ideas by creating in and out groups around opinions on the right way to do things

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