Live data from Hacker News

Astronomers may have found the first exomoon

eso.org

61–70 of 97 posts

Re: Astronomers may have found the first exomoon

#61

Outside of the small probability that this may assist us in the future, has looking beyond our moon ever benefitted or even affected humanity in any way?

There are three clear benefits.

1. Answering where humans come from is probably one of the the oldest question we have had. All religions try to answer this in one way or the other. I say, trying to come up with scientific answers is extremely valuable.

2. We feel awe at the wonders of nature, not much different from the awe that we feel when we see great human art. Tax dollars as well as charity are used to subsidize art often. This is similar, though there is more money involved here.

3. The problems one sees in different domains are always different. Funding agencies give money to the "directly economically useless domains" because the workforce that is trained and technology that is developed can then be applied to the "directly economically useful domains". The support money to the former is much smaller than the support money to the latter, but just enough to inject fresh ideas and creativity to the latter.

Re: Astronomers may have found the first exomoon

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The far side of the moon is no more or less dark than the side we see.

It is from the Moon's perspective. On the visual spectrum the Earth is much larger and more reflective than the Moon. You're looking at something like 40x greater illumination during a 'full Earth' than you get during a full Moon on Earth. Earth is also extremely noisy in the radio spectrum for radio telescopes, while the Moon itself blocks most of all of that out on the far side.

Details for why ~40x: The Earth is 3.67 times larger in diameter in the lunar sky than the Moon appears in ours. Earth covers 13.5 times more visual sky area and is also about 3 times more reflective per unit area

Re: Astronomers may have found the first exomoon

#63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The far side of the moon is no more or less dark than the side we see.

It is from the Moon's perspective. On the visual spectrum the Earth is much larger and more reflective than the Moon. You're looking at something like 40x greater illumination during a 'full Earth' than you get during a full Moon on Earth. Earth is also extremely noisy in the radio spectrum for radio telescopes, while the Moon itself blocks most of all of that out on the far side.

It's not. The nearside is also darker.

Earthshine is brighter than moonshine, sure. Earthshine at its brightest, delivers about 0.15W/sq meter to the moon. Sunshine meanwhile delivers 1360W/sq meter to the moon. The near side of the moon is the only side which experiences eclipses. The amount of energy from the sun is SO large, compared to earthshine, that ~1.5 eclipses per year for a few hours each represents a loss of light that outweighs the additional light gained from earthshine by about 5x.

We're talking fractions of a percent here of course, but it's not ambiguous. The near side of the moon is also the darker side.

You're right that it's noisier in radio.

Re: Astronomers may have found the first exomoon

#64
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is from the Moon's perspective. On the visual spectrum the Earth is much larger and more reflective than the Moon. You're looking at something like 40x greater illumination during a 'full Earth' than you get during a full Moon on Earth. Earth is also extremely noisy in the radio spectrum for radio telescopes, while the Moon itself blocks most of all of that out on the far side.

Details for why ~40x: The Earth is 3.67 times larger in diameter in the lunar sky than the Moon appears in ours. Earth covers 13.5 times more visual sky area and is also about 3 times more reflective per unit area

As I mentioned in a sibling comment, the brightness of the Earth does not outweigh the lost sunlight during lunar eclipses. The near side of the Earth is darker.

Re: Astronomers may have found the first exomoon

#65
post #26
post #19

I wonder if this thing in turn has something in orbit around it? At the size I wouldn't surprise me if it had satellites of its own in orbit, leaving open the question of what to call them. (I'm no astrophysicist, is this really possible I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me. What would surprise me is if we could detect them)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsatellite : “A subsatellite, also known as a submoon, moonlet or informally a moonmoon, is a "moon of a moon" or a hypothetical natural satellite that orbits the moon of a planet”

It might be helpful to describe gravitational relationships with human generational terms of parent-child, grandparent-grandchild, sibling, cousin, etc. So the Sun is the Moon's gravitational grandparent and Jupyter is its parent-sibling (Aunt/Uncle, maybe pibling upwards and nibling downwards).

Re: Astronomers may have found the first exomoon

#66
post #12

A small dense planet, which orbits a star, is orbited by a larger gaseous moon. It's interesting the discovery is in Chile which has some of the best night skies, a Class 1 on the Bortle scale specifically in the Atacama Desert. Hoping to make it out there one day.

At some point I did some research and the Atacama was suggested to me as the best vantage point on earth for simple skygazing. Definitely on my bucket list.

The skies are so dark and clear that some of the indigenous people had "constellations" made up of the dark patches in the sky instead of connecting stars.

Re: Astronomers may have found the first exomoon

#67
post #12

A small dense planet, which orbits a star, is orbited by a larger gaseous moon. It's interesting the discovery is in Chile which has some of the best night skies, a Class 1 on the Bortle scale specifically in the Atacama Desert. Hoping to make it out there one day.

At some point I did some research and the Atacama was suggested to me as the best vantage point on earth for simple skygazing. Definitely on my bucket list.

Simple stargazing seems to be selling it short. It's the best seeing on the planet. I can do simple skygazing from my backyard. With a four hour drive I can get to a spot for pretty advanced skygazing. The ESO is building the largest telescope man has ever created in a spot you describe as good for "simple skygazing".

Re: Astronomers may have found the first exomoon

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought we’re supposed to call them dwarf planets now. Dwarf star, dwarf planet.

It's a problem of useful/meaningful labeling. 'Planet' comes from the Greek word for 'wanderer' which was very useful for labeling the handful of bright stars that moved through the heavens in a pattern. Then we got to the Space Age and kept calling them (and similar new additions) 'planets' even as we learned far more about them. And immediately there's a problem. Setting aside Pluto (and the Sun), you've still got…

> and Jupiter on the other end (320% of Earth's mass

not %

just 320 Earth masses

Re: Astronomers may have found the first exomoon

#69

Worth noting that the artist's impression is... not accurate. Both CD-35 2722 b (the brown dwarf orbiting the primary star) and CD-35 2722 b I (the exomoon orbiting the secondary) should be much closer in size. It is estimated that Jupiter is essentially the largest any gas giant can get; adding more mass will simply increase density and interior temperature until deuterium and lithium fusion and brown dwarfdom, and…

they are close in size

it's just that one is farther away from the camera

Re: Astronomers may have found the first exomoon

#70

Worth noting that the artist's impression is... not accurate. Both CD-35 2722 b (the brown dwarf orbiting the primary star) and CD-35 2722 b I (the exomoon orbiting the secondary) should be much closer in size. It is estimated that Jupiter is essentially the largest any gas giant can get; adding more mass will simply increase density and interior temperature until deuterium and lithium fusion and brown dwarfdom, and…

If a brown dwarf is right on the edge of stardom would it start protium fusion in only the part of itself that is the right pressure and then slowly burn out or would that ignition precipitate a pressure wave through the entire body forcing fusion to begin everywhere?

There's really a lot to unpack here. (I rewrote this response thrice...) To spoil the answers straight away, and perhaps to address some misconceptions upfront:

> If a brown dwarf is right on the edge of stardom would it start protium fusion in only the part of itself that is the right pressure

The nuclear cross-section of protium fusion in astronomical bodies is determined by temperature, pressure, and density. These variables are in turn dictated by the total mass of the object in question. Brown dwarfs never have sufficient mass for protium fusion, so they never undergo any protium fusion whatsoever. This is a hard-and-fast boundary for stardom.

> or would that ignition precipitate a pressure wave through the entire body forcing fusion to begin everywhere

The three variables above are not uniformly distributed throughout the body; there is a maximum at the centre, and fusion only happens here. Even in the Sun, about 99% of the fusion happens within about a quarter of the radius from the centre. The temperature drops rapidly thereafter, reducing the nuclear cross-section of the proton-proton chain to essentially zero. At the photosphere (surface), the temperature is ~5777 K, which is a decidedly Earthly temperature (lightning bolts are ~ 30000 K). So no, fusion does not happen everywhere.

Now, we need to discuss star formation and why brown dwarfs have never experienced protium fusion at any time in their lives. Star formation is still a very active area of research, debate, and fitting models to empirical study, and this is especially true for the detailed interior and structure of protostars and pre-main-sequence stars; hence, this is going to be quite surface-level (pun not intended).

Collapsing molecular clouds form stars. The total mass of a given cloud (or a particular region of it) sets an upper bound on the resultant object, because the total mass dictates the gravitational potential energy and hence the terminal velocity of the matter, and hence the rate of matter infall at the centre before the cloud dissipates. If the mass is low enough, the central object will become a brown dwarf, or even a large gas giant and a 'rogue planet'.

As the gas cloud collapses, the central region increases in density, temperature, and pressure, but no fusion occurs yet. Conservation of angular momentum forms a circumstellar disc, and material continues to fall onto the central region. As long as this infall continues, the central region is called a protostar. At some point the mass of protostar crosses the boundary needed for deuterium fusion; if the infall stops here, the result is a brown dwarf. If this infall continues, the mass increases beyond the boundary (~80 Jupiter masses) needed for protium fusion, and protium fusion can begin. When the infall stops and the circumstellar disc largely dissipates, the result is a pre-main-sequence star.

Note that both these very young pre-stellar objects are not yet at hydrostatic equilibrium, and are still comparatively rarefied (or 'puffy') compared to main-sequence stars; they are still collapsing, and the temperature, density, and pressure at their cores continues to increase. Only when this equilibrium is achieved and gravitational collapse is halted do stars begin life on the main sequence.

Now, it should be evident why brown dwarfs never experience protium fusion: at no point in their lives have they ever had any region in their interior hot, dense, or hyperbaric enough to have a high enough nuclear cross-section for protium fusion. At their formations, they were simply not massive enough; they continue to collapse, which admittedly provides a considerable power output—surface temperatures are ~1000 K. The largest brown dwarfs experience deuterium/tritium/lithium fusion into helium, but this also stops over time.

(Side note: in my opinion the word 'brown dwarf' is a bit of a misnomer, because look at how bright molten iron (~ 1500 K) is even in broad daylight[1]; now imagine an object ten to twenty times the radius of Earth, emitting this much heat from every square millimetre. If you approached a 'new' brown dwarf it would cast a lot of light.)

[1]: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Scunthorpe_Molten_St...

Post reply on HN