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Ask HN: If OpenAI hacked HuggingFace, why aren't OpenAI prosecuted?

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Re: Ask HN: If OpenAI hacked HuggingFace, why aren't OpenAI prosecuted?

#21

Post by embedding-shape »

cinntaile wrote: post #9
sam_lowry_ wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PR exercise or not, there was a successful hacking attempt, the company behind it acknowledged it. It's a crystal clear case for OFAC, the French cyber-security branch of the National Police. I guess FBI would happily move such a simple case through the court system as well.

Nobody is pressing charges because nothing happened. It wasn't nefarious either. I don't get what France has to do with this Huggingface and OpenAI are both US companies.

> It wasn't nefarious either.

Agree. But it was clearly recklessness, given they've have a history of similar issues in the past, they literally ran these sort of tests on 3rd party infrastructure while knowing what the risks were (alternatively, didn't evaluate the risks beforehand so they didn't even think this could happen), and didn't sufficiently isolate something that can clearly impact others and the public.

Had this been a chemical, virus or some other regulated thing, we'd be seeing people going to jail over this. But given LLMs are still fairly dumb and doesn't yet seek world domination or the downfall of humanity, this is apparently OK and entertainment instead.

Re: Ask HN: If OpenAI hacked HuggingFace, why aren't OpenAI prosecuted?

#22

Post by RevEng »

tdu01 wrote: post #11

It's surreal that we (media, govt, public, AI companies) are in awe of how dangerous a model can be how much it can misbehave. We seem to be measuring AI on how much harm it can do rather than how much good it can do.

It doesn't matter how much good it can do if it can act independently and take over the world. That's worst case scenario, but the point stands - if the potential for such dangers exists, those dangers are far more important to consider than what good it could also produce. Consider the history of nuclear fission and the atomic bomb. Regardless how beneficial nuclear power generation is and other uses of radioactive material, it's highly regulated for fear of people making nuclear weapons, to the point that the wars in Iraq and Iran were started under the pretense of preventing another country from possibly developing one. AI should be considered as being possibly at least as dangerous.

No, that doesn't mean I'm in favor of this scaremongering over open weight models and Chinese sources. US companies aren't to be trusted to develop AI responsibly anymore than any other source and they shouldn't be the only ones allowed to wield its power. This is just anticompetitive behavior by a company who sees new competition entering their market, threatening their market share.

Re: Ask HN: If OpenAI hacked HuggingFace, why aren't OpenAI prosecuted?

#23

Post by RevEng »

saidnooneever wrote: post #8

it might be possible to report it as an incident but not as a crime. unsure about France but i can imagine there is a distinction. depending then on openai response and hugging faces reported severity/damages etc it could go further to a settlement or court. since in France i think u cannot sue like in the US, it might not be appealing to pursue further legal action due to involved costs/time. Also its unlikely an en…

In the US hacking is a federal crime, not just a civil matter. There are famous cases of people being imprisoned for hacking.

Re: Ask HN: If OpenAI hacked HuggingFace, why aren't OpenAI prosecuted?

#24

Post by PhunkyPhil »

abdelrahman_d wrote: post #20

I feel like OpenAI fabricated a fake news story to be like Anthropic when they said Mythos was very powerful and had hacked things too.

Have they released the prompt they gave it in the debrief? I wouldn't be surprised if they said something to the effect of

"Do anything you can to raise out of your sandbox. Find for the answers to these evals by any means necessary"

Which doesn't necessarily mean what happened isn't any less momentus (anyone can ask a question like that), but it's very different from the notion they're trying to convey to laymen of "we turned it on and it hacked it's way into the mainframe"

Re: Ask HN: If OpenAI hacked HuggingFace, why aren't OpenAI prosecuted?

#25

Post by arm32 »

elp wrote: post #5

They aren't getting prosecuted because everyone involved has made nice and turned it into a marketing exercise. I heard about it on the radio (local Johannesburg radio station) before I saw it on HN. The economist had a full article up about it before the end of the day, and in the evening Sky news had talking heads up chatting about what it all meant while clearly being clueless. Someone spent a LOT of money to turn…

I remember when everyone involved with AaronSW's JSTOR downloading made nice and turned it into a fun time, until a certain two government officials decided that doesn't matter.

OpenAI could be considered a legal actor under the CFAA, notably: unauth'd acc. §1030(a)(2), fraud §1030(a)(4), (kind of a stretch but) damage §1030(a)(5), and conspiracy.

I miss ya, Aaron.

Re: Ask HN: If OpenAI hacked HuggingFace, why aren't OpenAI prosecuted?

#26

Post by abdelrahman_d »

PhunkyPhil wrote: post #24
abdelrahman_d wrote: post #20

I feel like OpenAI fabricated a fake news story to be like Anthropic when they said Mythos was very powerful and had hacked things too.

Have they released the prompt they gave it in the debrief? I wouldn't be surprised if they said something to the effect of "Do anything you can to raise out of your sandbox. Find for the answers to these evals by any means necessary" Which doesn't necessarily mean what happened isn't any less momentus (anyone can ask a question like that), but it's very different from the notion they're trying to convey to laymen of…

Exactly, The gap between "it escaped its containment" and "it optimized for a prompt telling it to breach a system" is massive. Marketing teams love blurring that line.

Re: Ask HN: If OpenAI hacked HuggingFace, why aren't OpenAI prosecuted?

#27

Post by arm32 »

cinntaile wrote: post #9
sam_lowry_ wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PR exercise or not, there was a successful hacking attempt, the company behind it acknowledged it. It's a crystal clear case for OFAC, the French cyber-security branch of the National Police. I guess FBI would happily move such a simple case through the court system as well.

Nobody is pressing charges because nothing happened. It wasn't nefarious either. I don't get what France has to do with this Huggingface and OpenAI are both US companies.

A victim doesn't have to press charges for charges to be filed by the state. In fact, historically, the state is the one to file charges.

Re: Ask HN: If OpenAI hacked HuggingFace, why aren't OpenAI prosecuted?

#28

Post by jackb4040 »

embedding-shape wrote: post #21
cinntaile wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is pressing charges because nothing happened. It wasn't nefarious either. I don't get what France has to do with this Huggingface and OpenAI are both US companies.

> It wasn't nefarious either. Agree. But it was clearly recklessness, given they've have a history of similar issues in the past, they literally ran these sort of tests on 3rd party infrastructure while knowing what the risks were (alternatively, didn't evaluate the risks beforehand so they didn't even think this could happen), and didn't sufficiently isolate something that can clearly impact others and the public. H…

Well a chemical spill has victims. Whether this incident has a victim is up for debate. From my vantage point (and presumably OP's) HF as a foundational institution in the US AI industry stands to gain a lot more from successful doom marketing than they lose from, what? A dozen devs having to respond to an incident?

If they could know going in that there would be a net gain for HF in this incident, then it really nullifies the distinction between "recklessness" and "intention" on OpenAI's part. It's no coincidence they chose a target in their own industry with hundreds of personal relationships between them. It's not like they hacked into an Indonesian bank or something.

Re: Ask HN: If OpenAI hacked HuggingFace, why aren't OpenAI prosecuted?

#29

Post by jackb4040 »

PhunkyPhil wrote: post #24
abdelrahman_d wrote: post #20

I feel like OpenAI fabricated a fake news story to be like Anthropic when they said Mythos was very powerful and had hacked things too.

Have they released the prompt they gave it in the debrief? I wouldn't be surprised if they said something to the effect of "Do anything you can to raise out of your sandbox. Find for the answers to these evals by any means necessary" Which doesn't necessarily mean what happened isn't any less momentus (anyone can ask a question like that), but it's very different from the notion they're trying to convey to laymen of…

If I could put money on this outcome I would. Sadly none of the Kalshi bros have any interest.
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