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Ghost Cut – Or why Cut and Paste is broken everywhere

ishmael.textualize.io

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Re: Ghost Cut – Or why Cut and Paste is broken everywhere

#121
post #2

I don't think I would like this. He mentions Excel does something similar and Excel is my least favourite app to cut/copy/paste in.

Have to disagree here. I think Excel is amazingly well engineered, and very well designed for the majority of the users, despite some flaws.

Excel is a bit complicated for cut/copy/paste, because you have not only the content of the cells, but also references to cells. Cut and copy have subtly different behaviour that, I think, works well for most people's mental model.

Namely: Most instances of cut are followed by one paste, and really constitute an atomic move. That's why when you cut and paste something in Excel elsewhere, all references to cells that have been moved are updated, no matter whether they were inside the moved area or outside, and no matter whether they were relative or absolute. (Just the same as they're naturally updated if you insert or delete columns/rows above or to the left of the referenced cell).

That's why a cut "marks" the cut cells, and after you paste, nothing is marked anymore. You can't paste twice. It's akin to the Ghost Cut described in the article: an atomic move that only happens upon paste.

When you copy, however, and paste somewhere else, a) only the "relative" references among the moved cells are updated (neither absolute references nor references in cells that were not copied are updated); and b) the copied area remains "marked" and you can paste again and again.

Given the complexity of this (think about references that are ranges...), a) it's a wonder that it works as well as it does, doing the expected thing for most people most of the time, and b) it's understandable that you can't cut or copy, then modify the marked origin (it'll unmark the cells and abort the operation), then paste.

This means, incidentally, that a copy & delete in Excel is distinct from a cut.

Re: Ghost Cut – Or why Cut and Paste is broken everywhere

#122
post #96

It always amazes me the things that other people get really amped up about. I've never in my life felt anything at all about cut and paste.

Well, it's useful. When the iPhone initially didn't support it, people were unhappy, and it was added soon enough.

Re: Ghost Cut – Or why Cut and Paste is broken everywhere

#124

Hyperbolic title is, unsurprisingly, misleading. At least the article follows the style consistently. The "ghost cut" is a two-step text move. A perfectly fine operation to have, _because_ it's not the same as a cut operation followed by a single paste operation. Cut can be used without paste, and paste can be used more than once. They're combinable primitive operations. Sometimes what you want isn't that combination…

> paste can be used more than once

Not in Excel after you cut. Because there, cut & paste is seen as an atomic move, akin to what's described in the article.

Re: Ghost Cut – Or why Cut and Paste is broken everywhere

#125
post #115
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you never copied, tried to paste and you pasted the wrong thing because copy failed? Cut + undo, is copy with visual feedback

Copy and paste gives you visual feedback without reflowing the document. I also use it to intentionally add a marker in undo history in documents in not planning to change, as that way I can use the undo history to jump to different areas.

Where does Copy give you feedback that you actually copied something?

Re: Ghost Cut – Or why Cut and Paste is broken everywhere

#126
This person is free to think this, but I don't think I agree.

Personally I'd prefer something to be done about cut/copy-jacking where you try to copy a highlighted item and your site or application decides to copy something entirely different in an effort to be 'helpful'.

If I'm copying a url, I don't want my browser prefixing it with https:// for example.

Re: Ghost Cut – Or why Cut and Paste is broken everywhere

#127
This looks so logical my mind struggles to understand why this is not how it already works in other programs o.O

the points on how undo interacts with this and the clipboard contents its also a good example of how relatively simple features can have a fairly high combined complexity to ensure the features do behave as expected if you use them in tandem.

nice writeup and cool solution :) thanks!

i see some comments about the move, and the cut & paste to be 3 actions etc. this is perhaps technically the case in current programs that you use, but conceptually and for most non-tech users this is not how the feature is presented. hence i think its a nice solution to fit the behavior to how its presented, rather than presenting more different ways to manipulate the document, using a move or other methods. (this would add complexity for non techy users. many editors which are mentioned are very complex with lots of keybindings)

Re: Ghost Cut – Or why Cut and Paste is broken everywhere

#128

Cut and Paste is three operations. Cut is two operations copy and delete, copy is never undone by undo it should not be undone when you cut either. I cut, undo, ..., undo, and paste multiple times a day. It's a feature not a bug. > Cut & Paste is not atomic Yes because it's two different actions. What does "Ghost Cut" do if you paste multiple times? Paste the cut text first and then what? The previous thing in your c…

I agree with TFA on all points and therefore strongly disagree with all that is said in this post. "Cut'n paste" should be one atomic operation. If you want to do multiple pastes (why? what's the context?) then copy to the clipboard and paste to your heart's content.

It's also a fundamental flaw that undoing cut doesn't undo its side effects. Undo should always mean: restore the state of the world (/of the system) to where it was before. Not just "back up a few steps depending on this or that".

Re: Ghost Cut – Or why Cut and Paste is broken everywhere

#129

This looks so logical my mind struggles to understand why this is not how it already works in other programs o.O the points on how undo interacts with this and the clipboard contents its also a good example of how relatively simple features can have a fairly high combined complexity to ensure the features do behave as expected if you use them in tandem. nice writeup and cool solution :) thanks! i see some comments ab…

It doesn't work this way because this breaks any use case that involves more than one program.

Re: Ghost Cut – Or why Cut and Paste is broken everywhere

#130
Cut & Paste always struck me as more of a Windows thing. Which is weird because obviously I can do cmd+X / cmd+V on a mac... I just never do. Instead it's "select" - command+C - delete - cmd+V.

Am I the only one who does that?

(EDIT: Same thing on Finder. cmd+C cmd+Del cmd+V)

Anyway, I love the design aesthetic of the site, and when people question existing paradigms. Will definitely be checking Ishmael out.

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