Earlier quoted context omitted.
Unless you’re from mainland China, you should.
Why so? If I'm from Europe or South America, should I hope Anthropic/Openai win?
Yes. They’re flawed, but you don’t want a global police state administered by the PRC.
“We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”
611–620 of 742 posts
Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”
#612Earlier quoted context omitted.
Genuinely want to know if you're surprised that there have been almost no commenters concurring with (what seems to be) a well-substantiated (& on the face of it defensibly center-right) tweet from the WH Will contrarian dynamic take off here? Will it be flagged? Will you unflag it? Edit: catigula, mattrighetti With more substantive technical comments towards the middle
Yes, I think it just takes time for more substantive comments to show up. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...
Ah CD didn't seem to have taken off.
Not surprised, but had thought you'd be.
[My more convivial analysis summarised as]
Right-wing post -> left majority take -> lack of good places for right reflective minority takes to shift the convo
Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”
#613Earlier quoted context omitted.
Software is protected by the DMCA, patents, licenses, EULAs, all of those aren't there for books. I doubt new laws won't be written for model outputs. Also, if model output distillation is shown as some form of reverse engineering I assume the DMCA can apply
You may recall that the DMCA was originally written to protect music and movies. It does in fact apply to creative works. If you have ever purchased an MP3, eBook, or streaming movie, you will also be aware that you purchased a license to the underlying IP. This is also true of physical media, but the license agreement you have to accept when obtaining a digital work makes this explicit. I agree that you can't patent…
You do patent ideas, but the actual words written in a book describing that idea would only be protected by copyright at best. FWIW, the exact words describing the idea being patented are technically public domain; that's the whole point. You're free to go look up that patent, print it out, make whatever copies of it you want. Take any of the drawings in patents, put them on t-shirts, and sell them. No problem. Implementing the ideas those words represent is a different story.
For example, a patent describing a chemical process. The actual idea of how to do it is public domain, go look up the patent. Print it out. Do whatever with those words. Its fine. Building a plant to go do that chemical process to make that same output chemical in that same way, that's IP infringement. Its not the words, its the idea.
Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”
#614Nice! I hope to see continued liberation of these locked up SOTA models. Cloud is a virtual prison, since other people's policies on what they think a user should and should not do cannot be [easily] bypassed, if enforced remotely on a cloud. All digital natives should be skeptical of cloud-hosted services or software. Think like an intelligence agency or sovereign: how are you going to get screwed by the cloud? Your…
Do you think China is doing this for the reasons you mentioned: liberation..efforts, human interests and freedom of policy?
Yes, and they gave me the weights to prove it.
Do you think Anthropic is in it for the love of the game? It looks like they're scared, to me.
Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”
#615Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why so? If I'm from Europe or South America, should I hope Anthropic/Openai win?
Yes. They’re flawed, but you don’t want a global police state administered by the PRC.
Who said so? I don't want the current global police state administered by the US government and oligarchies
Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”
#616Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's hilarious to see how all these HN intellectuals, who on any other day are rabidly against most DRM / IP issues all of a sudden become private property absolutists. It's also sadly hypocritical to see all this rhetoric here on this thread decrying SOTAs for using a variety of content for their inputs as somehow sTeaLINg sTufF! ... ... but Chinese SOTA foundries directly using distillation as fair game. I don't th…
Like most things, i support rights for people, and not companies. Copyright was created for authors, artists, and inventors. Rules for corporations can and should be different.
Lolololololololol
One person can a corporation be.
Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”
#617Watching the tenants of intellectual gatekeeping bang up against the inevitable paradoxes of late stage capitalism - a spectacle worthy of jiffy pop.
Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”
#618I can understand that the AI labs might care about other labs distilling their models as it can eat into their competitive advantage, but do consumers care at all? Aren't consumers benefiting from this practice by getting better cheaper models as a result?
It’s the same as the patent argument. If everyone could freely copy everything then yes in the short term prices would drop and consumers would benefit, but over the long term it would discourage investment into new technology because a return would be impossible.
> It’s the same as the patent argument.
The Chinese are open-sourcing these models - meaning they are literally giving them away. That's starkly different behaviour from that which drove patents and copyright.
There are all sorts of other differences too. If you develop a drug or publish a novel (which are respectively areas where patents and copyright have strong justification), you have to kiss a lot of toads before you get a prince. Once you have a potential prince drug, it takes years and billions to get it into the market. But right now, AI labs are seemingly churning out new prince models almost weekly, on hardware that will be obsoleted in a few years by hardware that makes finding princes faster and cheaper. In fact they rent the hardware, as Moonshot apparently did here.
When innovation is happening at that rate, patents and other IP restrictions just slow things down. If AI patents are aggressively granted and enforced in the USA, I suspect the outcome would be the same as batteries. China swept the market with LFP, and one reason was because while the USA developed them, there was no competition forcing the manufacturing price down because in the USA the patents weren't re-licensed cheaply. China had the foresight to secure a deal allowing them to develop and sell LFP domestically royalty-free. Natural competition within the domestic market took care of the rest. It looks like they are using a similar strategy for AI.
To me it looks like they have come up with a better formula for using capitalism to drive innovation than the one the USA is using.
Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”
#619Paying the list price Anthropic decided upon for outputs from an LLM, then using those outputs for your work? Or sourcing those outputs from others that paid for the service, and using those? If that's "distillation", it seems fine to me. And a lot like what most are doing with these same providers.
Anthropic: training AI is "transformative", it's not copyright infringement if we don't re-transmit the copyrighted books we trained on
Anthropic: training AI models on our outputs is stealing our secret sauce, outputs that could only be produced by us
Anthropic: AI model outputs are unreliable and do not reflect Anthropic's views, we are not liable if they harm you
(not exact quotes, they're "distilled")
So Anthropic "distills" knowledge of others with reckless abandon, packages it up, sells it to you, claims it's your fault if anything bad happens but then also lobbies to treat you as a criminal if the outputs you paid for end up being transformed into any sort of competition for them. By you, or others that use the outputs you paid for.
Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”
#620Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's hilarious to see how all these HN intellectuals, who on any other day are rabidly against most DRM / IP issues all of a sudden become private property absolutists. It's also sadly hypocritical to see all this rhetoric here on this thread decrying SOTAs for using a variety of content for their inputs as somehow sTeaLINg sTufF! ... ... but Chinese SOTA foundries directly using distillation as fair game. I don't th…
You're being too charitable to Anthropic, and assuming that the way they are abusing the word "distillation" has some real meaning here. It doesn't. Anthropic's models simply do not give you their reasoning output - they give a sanitized "summary" instead, for this exact reason, so that the output is not useful to anyone who might want to use it for training. You can't distill what you are not given - simple as that.…
> Anthropic's models simply do not give you their reasoning output - they give a sanitized "summary" instead, for this exact reason, so that the output is not useful to anyone who might want to use it for training.
This is just straight-up factually false.
The output of a reasoning model is immensely valuable even without the sanitized summary of the reasoning process - that Anthropic's service does expose to you, making it even more valuable.
There's absolutely nothing about the distillation process that requires that reasoning in the first place, either. That's a definition that you made up.
Chinese models are, factually, distilled from Anthropic models. I've personally repeatedly asked several different Chinese LLMs what their name is, and they answered "Claude".
Don't make stuff up to suit a political agenda. It's extremely dishonest.