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Supporting Israel’s “start-up nation”

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Re: Supporting Israel’s “start-up nation”

#31

Post by reuven »

accountswu wrote: post #29
reuven wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Preface: I'm an Israeli Jew, born in the United States. I've lived in Israel since 1995, and now have a family (with three children). I could respond to this comment by saying, "Why be so negative toward Israel, when there are so many countries that treat people so much worse?" But even though I believe that there are indeed countries with far worse human-rights records than Israel, and which treat citizens and non-c…

What Chutzpah you've got, born in US has the right to be a citizen of the settler state but natives cannot return and you want us all to support your Judeo-supremacist terrorist state? Take your hasbara somewhere else. Saudi, China etc are not settler states which deny equal rights to their people of certain race or ethnicity or religion, and they don't get $3 billion in aid from US for 7 million people of a preferre…

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of two national/ethnic groups having claim to the same piece of land. I accept the fact that Israel must compromise with the Palestinians, and relinquish some of the land that it has captured. I remember when this was a radical suggestion among Israelis; it is now quite mainstream, although you wouldn't know it from listening to our elected officials.

To confuse this attitude with the superficial propaganda that our government puts out, and to say that the Palestinians (and not Jews) are the "rightful owners of the land," is a recipe for non-compromise and for continued conflict.

Israel isn't going anywhere, and neither are Israelis. But the Palestinians aren't about to disappear, either. We can work together to try to resolve this conflict, accepting that each side has a claim to the land and attempting to share it -- or we, and our children, and their children, can continue to fight and live in fear.

Remember how Germany and France fought, again and again, for oh-so-many years? After World War II, they decided that it was in their mutual best interest to connect their economies through what would eventually become the European Union. Perhaps, if we can connect and encourage cooperation between the Israeli and Palestinian economies, especially in the high-tech sector, we can begin to see such interdependence and trust in the Middle East, too.

Re: Supporting Israel’s “start-up nation”

#32

Post by accountswu »

reuven wrote: post #31
accountswu wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What Chutzpah you've got, born in US has the right to be a citizen of the settler state but natives cannot return and you want us all to support your Judeo-supremacist terrorist state? Take your hasbara somewhere else. Saudi, China etc are not settler states which deny equal rights to their people of certain race or ethnicity or religion, and they don't get $3 billion in aid from US for 7 million people of a preferre…

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of two national/ethnic groups having claim to the same piece of land. I accept the fact that Israel must compromise with the Palestinians, and relinquish some of the land that it has captured. I remember when this was a radical suggestion among Israelis; it is now quite mainstream, although you wouldn't know it from listening to our elected officials. To confuse this attitude w…

What is your point? You want to have your apartheid and eat it too and no one should dare call it what it is? Do you support the rights of the Jaffa-born and Haifa-born and Deir Yaseen-born Palestinians to return to their land and have at least the rights a US-born settler has? Currently the wing nuts of Israel (I.e. the rightist as well as leftists) are not willing to give those rights and neither is the wide majority of Israeli Jews. Until they are forced to give equal rights they should be boycotted and you should stand for the boycott, not against.

Germany had to end the occupation of France and the rights of French were not that of second class citizens when they did all the nice cooperative things you mentioned.

Re: Supporting Israel’s “start-up nation”

#33

Post by eranation »

accountswu wrote: post #32
reuven wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of two national/ethnic groups having claim to the same piece of land. I accept the fact that Israel must compromise with the Palestinians, and relinquish some of the land that it has captured. I remember when this was a radical suggestion among Israelis; it is now quite mainstream, although you wouldn't know it from listening to our elected officials. To confuse this attitude w…

What is your point? You want to have your apartheid and eat it too and no one should dare call it what it is? Do you support the rights of the Jaffa-born and Haifa-born and Deir Yaseen-born Palestinians to return to their land and have at least the rights a US-born settler has? Currently the wing nuts of Israel (I.e. the rightist as well as leftists) are not willing to give those rights and neither is the wide majori…

I think Israel will not willingly give right of return to the refugees, regardless if it's justified or not, giving all Palestinian refugees rights to go back as equal Israeli citizens will mean majority to the Palestinians in the next Israeli elections and the end of the state of Israel. Not something the state of Israel will likely accept as it will mean a Palestinian prime minister ruling the state which includes commanding the Israeli army, Israeli police, intelligence etc. This is one of the top debate issues between the Palestinians and Israel - what to do with the refugees. Monetary compensation is most likely what will happen in a final agreement, and some Palestinians accept it as a fact, even though the public voice there is for physical return of refugees, they know that they can't force Israel to make a decision that will result in it's elimination.

Re: Supporting Israel’s “start-up nation”

#34

Post by accountswu »

eranation wrote: post #33
accountswu wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is your point? You want to have your apartheid and eat it too and no one should dare call it what it is? Do you support the rights of the Jaffa-born and Haifa-born and Deir Yaseen-born Palestinians to return to their land and have at least the rights a US-born settler has? Currently the wing nuts of Israel (I.e. the rightist as well as leftists) are not willing to give those rights and neither is the wide majori…

I think Israel will not willingly give right of return to the refugees, regardless if it's justified or not, giving all Palestinian refugees rights to go back as equal Israeli citizens will mean majority to the Palestinians in the next Israeli elections and the end of the state of Israel. Not something the state of Israel will likely accept as it will mean a Palestinian prime minister ruling the state which includes…

So the American and Belgian and Russian Jews will not give equal rights to the Palestinians and you won't even give them a state on the tiny 18-20% of their original land. That is precisely what my problem is with the Israeli apartheid regime and it should be the problem of any half decent human being to stop the apartheid.

in case you had not realised, this will not last. The US (and its client states such as Canada and some tiny Pacific islands) cannot keep your status as superior and keep giving you shielding despite bombings, home demolitions and new Jewish-only settlements. Either you have to give at least nominally equal rights to Palestinians or you have to prepare for the Algerian solution (French settlers had to pack up and leave). Until that, your apartheid state should be boycotted monetarily, diplomatically and culturally.

Re: Supporting Israel’s “start-up nation”

#35

Post by reuven »

accountswu wrote: post #32
reuven wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of two national/ethnic groups having claim to the same piece of land. I accept the fact that Israel must compromise with the Palestinians, and relinquish some of the land that it has captured. I remember when this was a radical suggestion among Israelis; it is now quite mainstream, although you wouldn't know it from listening to our elected officials. To confuse this attitude w…

What is your point? You want to have your apartheid and eat it too and no one should dare call it what it is? Do you support the rights of the Jaffa-born and Haifa-born and Deir Yaseen-born Palestinians to return to their land and have at least the rights a US-born settler has? Currently the wing nuts of Israel (I.e. the rightist as well as leftists) are not willing to give those rights and neither is the wide majori…

Israel, as a country, is nothing like apartheid, and it's a shame that you use that term. Arabs can and do freely participate in all parts of Israeli life, including membership and elected officials in just about every mainstream political party. It's acknowledged that more needs to be done to bring Arab income and educational levels up to those of Jewish Israelis, and there are far too many places in which Arabs officially and unofficially face discrimination. But there's a world of difference between discrimination and apartheid.

An increasingly vocal slice of economists, investors, and entrepreneurs are saying that helping Arab citizens to found high-tech companies would be good for the country, good (obviously) for those individuals, and might help to bridge the divide between Israel and the Arab world.

The situation is sadly different in the territories, which I believe is a moral and legal albatross around Israel's neck, and one which we need to resolve as quickly as possible -- preferably by pulling out most settlements and recognizing a Palestinian state.

As for Palestinians returning to their ancestral homes, I'm afraid that as with countless wars over the centuries, that will not happen for the overwhelming majority of them. The alternative would lead to an unlimited civil war, one which would have dire consequences for the entire public. I feel bad for people who lost their homes, and believe that they should be compensated. But no Israeli government, left or right, will agree for such a thing to happen, and I happen to believe that it's counterproductive for the welfare of Palestinians to focus on that, rather than building a free, democratic, and open Palestine -- something which has yet to occur, I'm afraid.

Finally, I'm not sure why you keep referring to me as a settler. I'm an immigrant, a resident, a citizen, and all sorts of other things. But I bought my home in a city within Israel proper, within the Green Line, despite all sorts of financial encouragement that the government gave me to go over the Green Line. If you want to make personal claims and accusations, I ask that you do so based on facts, rather than slogans.

Re: Supporting Israel’s “start-up nation”

#36

Post by ucee054 »

mikle wrote: post #26
ucee054 wrote: post #18

I don't know what Google intends by support , but if it were me I certainly wouldn't invest in Israel. The amorality of it aside, Israel is also a huge intellectual property and espionage risk. Check out "Spy Trade" by Grant F Smith as an example reference (links below). http://vimeo.com/31298789 http://www.amazon.com/Spy-Trade-Israels-Undermines-Americas/...

I still haven't seen your links but I think you are somewhat misinformed by seeing only one side of the issue. Israel (specifically Tel Aviv) is the biggest startup ecosystem outside of Silicon Valley. Do you really think that it got there by being un-investable or espionage risk? And on the flip side, do you not think that the US is even a bigger espionage risk as it has probably the largest Sigint operation (the NS…

So instead of looking at the evidence you smear the author instead.

Congratulations! You've just discovered the ad-hominem fallacy.

Details available from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

Re: Supporting Israel’s “start-up nation”

#37

Post by accountswu »

reuven wrote: post #35
accountswu wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is your point? You want to have your apartheid and eat it too and no one should dare call it what it is? Do you support the rights of the Jaffa-born and Haifa-born and Deir Yaseen-born Palestinians to return to their land and have at least the rights a US-born settler has? Currently the wing nuts of Israel (I.e. the rightist as well as leftists) are not willing to give those rights and neither is the wide majori…

Israel, as a country, is nothing like apartheid, and it's a shame that you use that term. Arabs can and do freely participate in all parts of Israeli life, including membership and elected officials in just about every mainstream political party. It's acknowledged that more needs to be done to bring Arab income and educational levels up to those of Jewish Israelis, and there are far too many places in which Arabs off…

You were not born in the land called Israel/Palestine, you were able to move there because of a supremacist regime that won't give the same rights to the natives just because of their race/creed/color. You US-born Jew have more rights than Jaffa-born Palestinian Christians or Isdud-born Muslims who were kicked out before Isdud was renamed to Ashdod yet you ask me why I call you a settler.

Mizrahim / Eastern Jews and Black African Jews were also treated as Guinea Pigs by the European Jews; they gave the children thousands of times more powerful x-rays than allowed amount, several died instantly, many have died of cancer.

Are you capable of rational thought? Are you talking about the settler state Israel which doesn't give equal rights to the natives yet allows Americans and Russians to move there based on their mother's religion or some other fictional country? A regime which has a separate set of laws for two groups based on their race, color or creed is referred to as an apartheid regime.

59% of Israelis approve of the term apartheid and support the discriminatory policies of their country:

http://972mag.com/poll-israelis-support-discrimination-again...

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/10/20121027145...

Re: Supporting Israel’s “start-up nation”

#38

Post by supervacuo »

eranation wrote: post #8
josteink wrote: post #6

Why would anyone here support a fundamentally racist, oppressive de-facto apartheid occupying state which is about to commit genocide? Especially considering the above average intelligence i presume people here to have. Israel needs to be boycotted, globally. Not supported. Not in any way. Not in the slightest.

No politics in HN, please.

"No politics" is like absolute zero: a state unreachable because of the nature of the universe. In fact, "no politics" is in itself a very political statement; you're calling for a libertarian foreign policy attitude by saying that it's possible to separate technology from the conditions under which it is produced and used.

If it were Apple or Google enacting a murderous military occupation I don't think you'd get very far trying to prevent people from discussing that on HN. Nations are like what we used to have before corporations... remember?

Re: Supporting Israel’s “start-up nation”

#39

Post by eranation »

accountswu wrote: post #34
eranation wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Israel will not willingly give right of return to the refugees, regardless if it's justified or not, giving all Palestinian refugees rights to go back as equal Israeli citizens will mean majority to the Palestinians in the next Israeli elections and the end of the state of Israel. Not something the state of Israel will likely accept as it will mean a Palestinian prime minister ruling the state which includes…

So the American and Belgian and Russian Jews will not give equal rights to the Palestinians and you won't even give them a state on the tiny 18-20% of their original land. That is precisely what my problem is with the Israeli apartheid regime and it should be the problem of any half decent human being to stop the apartheid. in case you had not realised, this will not last. The US (and its client states such as Canada…

American and Belgian and Russian jews? I lost you here my friend, sorry.

But few questions

1. why do you assume everyone replying is Israeli? I don't live in Israel, not sure what you mean "your state"

2. I'm all for giving the Palestinian a state side by side with Israel, I just think that expecting that a boycott will cause Israel to agree to giving citizenship to all refugees and thus ending the state of Israel as we know it is a little naive I have to say.

If you think Boycotting Israel or promoting it by commenting in forums will help that happen, all the best, you'll win the Nobel peace price if that will cause the conflict to end. But I doubt that's the way, the way is getting the hate a notch down, from both sides.

What is your solution, except boycotting which you mentioned, to the conflict? I'm happy to hear if you have any creative solution that will make this endless conflict end once and for all.

Let's assume a boycott works, or in other words, let's say you are now the prime minister of Israel, what would you do to end the conflict? What's your solution?

Re: Supporting Israel’s “start-up nation”

#40

Post by [deleted] »

eranation wrote: post #39
accountswu wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the American and Belgian and Russian Jews will not give equal rights to the Palestinians and you won't even give them a state on the tiny 18-20% of their original land. That is precisely what my problem is with the Israeli apartheid regime and it should be the problem of any half decent human being to stop the apartheid. in case you had not realised, this will not last. The US (and its client states such as Canada…

American and Belgian and Russian jews? I lost you here my friend, sorry. But few questions 1. why do you assume everyone replying is Israeli? I don't live in Israel, not sure what you mean "your state" 2. I'm all for giving the Palestinian a state side by side with Israel, I just think that expecting that a boycott will cause Israel to agree to giving citizenship to all refugees and thus ending the state of Israel as…

[deleted]
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