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“We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

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Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#581

Post by 4bpp »

breppp wrote: post #533
dylan604 wrote: post #510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so what? this has nothing to do with them taking from those that took before them. china censoring information they do not like is nothing new and seems irrelevant to this conversation

Fair enough you don't care, some people might want to know about the Uyghur happy camps, mass organ harvesting and such. In a world where information sources are only going to dwindle, it is not in anyone's interest to empower actors that will use these to manipulate perceptions

And some people might want to know about [insert your favourite beyond-the-pale-in-the-US topic here, we're on a US forum after all]. I think it would be great if those people could turn to Chinese models, while anyone wanting to know about Uyghur camps can ask the US ones.

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#582

Post by moralestapia »

kami23 wrote: post #573
moralestapia wrote: post #525

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not @throwa356262's argument. @throwa356262 argument is that it is infeasible to distill and release a new frontier model in two weeks.

Ah I interpreted it as 'of course they can't stop distillation if they couldn't stop a model from escaping its sandbox' I can see how there's a big leap there, but I agree somewhat. If they are aware these are happening and can detect it as it is happening why are they not stopping them? What do you do there? It'll be cat and mouse for a while. Thinking of reasons they wouldn't try and stop it is just a lot of specul…

Hmm ... so the gist of the issue is this.

Training and releasing a model like Kimi K3 takes months-to-a-year (and that's if you're really good at it).

'months-to-a-year' ago there was no Fable, so there was no way for them to distill them.

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#583

Post by bluegatty »

dijksterhuis wrote: post #572
bluegatty wrote: post #515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hilarious to see how all these HN intellectuals, who on any other day are rabidly against most DRM / IP issues all of a sudden become private property absolutists. It's also sadly hypocritical to see all this rhetoric here on this thread decrying SOTAs for using a variety of content for their inputs as somehow sTeaLINg sTufF! ... ... but Chinese SOTA foundries directly using distillation as fair game. I don't th…

> it's hilarious to see how all these HN intellectuals, who on any other day are rabidly against most DRM / IP issues all of a sudden become private property absolutists. for the record, i've always been rabidly pro-copyright since i worked at a performing royalty organization (prs for music) circa 15 years ago, way before i joined hn. i don't use llms for that reason. > It's also sadly hypocritical to see all this r…

I'm not attacking you, you don't have to defend yourself.

I'm just nothing that HN rhetoric is contradictory.

But this:

"when i see a spade, i call it a spade." -> this is anti intellectual absolutism.

If it were some true injustice, then fine, but that is clearly not the case.

There is ample room to contemplate that even copyrighted works could be considers fair use as training material.

"the corpos can get fucked as far as i'm concerned."

Ok that's fine - but then don't expect anyone to respect your principles if you don't have any other than 'screw that group!'.

I'm sympathetic to it (!!!) - but if we want to call a 'spade a spade' in a legitimate way, then we can do it in consistent and principled way.

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#585

Post by tristanj »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #553
tristanj wrote: post #530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it's a flawed conclusion. Claude Fable was publicly available for 72 hours early June. Moonshot more than enough time to prepare infrastructure, gather their preferred distillation data from Fable, and complete post-training well K3's mid-July launch.

> Moonshot more than enough time Genuine question: do you have a source for how long distilling Fable would take with preparation?

Moonshot already has at least several million exchanges distilled from Claude that they obtained over the past year https://www.anthropic.com/news/detecting-and-preventing-dist... . So they have the infrastructure already set up to do this. Re-running their existing distillation suite on the new Fable endpoint would be trivial.

Given that Fable was available for 72 hours back in June, I asked GPT-5.6 Sol to estimate how many accounts are needed to generate 1–2 million exchanges with Fable within that timeframe. It concluded it is achievable with only a few hundred accounts.

Here's GPT-5.6's conclusion:

Under a deliberately simplified, compliant planning model, a Max 20x account could produce approximately 1,944 to 5,832 standard exchanges during 72 hours when Fable 5 use is restricted to 50% of the modeled subscription capacity. The central planning estimate is 3,888 exchanges per account. The 1 to 2 million exchange target is therefore reachable in the central case with roughly 257 to 515 accounts.

And the analysis: https://markbin.net/s/pd_9DpYsQr9/sh_vxwgtYdQ?sig=9552292ab3...

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#587

Post by queenkjuul »

breppp wrote: post #492
bilbo0s wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? Serious question. I'm from the US, and I think it's hilarious.

One example is that a totalitarian government known for erasing historical record of its crimes will control an arbitrator of truth.

The US already decides what models get released by US companies...

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#588

Post by queenkjuul »

breppp wrote: post #533
dylan604 wrote: post #510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so what? this has nothing to do with them taking from those that took before them. china censoring information they do not like is nothing new and seems irrelevant to this conversation

Fair enough you don't care, some people might want to know about the Uyghur happy camps, mass organ harvesting and such. In a world where information sources are only going to dwindle, it is not in anyone's interest to empower actors that will use these to manipulate perceptions

People in China know about this stuff.

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#589

Post by linkregister »

vrganj wrote: post #532
some_random wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the Chinese look like a beacon of hope you then you really should be looking closer.

Do you know when the last war China started was? 1979. What about the US? 2026, still ongoing, still fucking up the global economy and threatening food supplies (fertilizer) and fuel reserves, no plan out, no objective reached, no coordination with "allies". When was the last time China threatened Europe or Canada with invasion? Was there ever a time? I honestly don't know. Guess what the US does all the time? Who's…

When looking at 2025 and 2026 narrowly, China is a better actor on the world stage.

I wonder if Vietnam, Philippines, Republic of Korea, India, and Japan are acting against their own interests by aligning themselves closer to the USA than China. Maybe you can educate their governments and populations.

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#590

Post by unknownfuture »

GuB-42 wrote: post #527
himata4113 wrote: post #62

Does this matter? Distillation is not illegal by every definition of the word. There are millions of samples available on huggingface and models explicitely trained on output produced by fable. There has been no action taken against them. Another example is that it appears that the upper limit of what you can do is ultimately dependent on people working on the model, otherwise grok would be a LOT more competitive pre…

> Distillation is not illegal by every definition of the word. I am waiting for a precedent on this one. In general, training on copyrighted material is legal, there is a lot of precedent there. But every now and then there is a case where the owner of the training material wins. I don't remember the details but I believe one of these instances was when one company trained its AI on the knowledge base of another comp…

> I am waiting for a precedent on this one. In general, training on copyrighted material is legal, there is a lot of precedent there. But every now and then there is a case where the owner of the training material wins.

You're making a fundamental assumption: that model outputs are subject to copyright. In the US that's only the case if a human is part of the creative process:

https://www.copyright.gov/newsnet/2025/1060.html

> It concludes that the outputs of generative AI can be protected by copyright only where a human author has determined sufficient expressive elements. This can include situations where a human-authored work is perceptible in an AI output, or a human makes creative arrangements or modifications of the output, but not the mere provision of prompts.

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