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“We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

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Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#531

Post by yencabulator »

sosodev wrote: post #31
kouteiheika wrote: post #25

Assuming they did then they surely paid for them, which makes it "not stealing". Am I also "stealing proprietary U.S. technology" by harvesting my Claude chats from my `.claude` directory and training a bunch of models on them? That said, I doubt the "they distilled Fable" is the reason why K3 is as good as it is, considering the timelines involved, and that Anthropic hides thinking traces, and their overly aggressiv…

Model distillation can't be stealing at all if you rationally apply copyright law to it. Anthropic is not deprived of Fable so there is no theft. At best it would be infringement, but even that might not hold up in the courts given the current position that model outputs can't be subject to copyright.

It's at most a Terms of Service violation escalated into political theater because checks notes China bad.

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#532

Post by vrganj »

some_random wrote: post #424
matheusmoreira wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The United States government considers US supremacy in "AI" as a national security consideration. And we foreigners consider US supremacy in AI to be an existential threat. Your "national security" is directly harmful to us. I never thought I'd say this but the chinese are starting to look like a beacon of hope for the rest of us.

If the Chinese look like a beacon of hope you then you really should be looking closer.

Do you know when the last war China started was? 1979.

What about the US? 2026, still ongoing, still fucking up the global economy and threatening food supplies (fertilizer) and fuel reserves, no plan out, no objective reached, no coordination with "allies".

When was the last time China threatened Europe or Canada with invasion? Was there ever a time? I honestly don't know.

Guess what the US does all the time?

Who's models are open and can be used by all? Who's are made by comic book villains with the explicit goal of ruining the job market and capturing the results of all human endeavors for themselves?

Of course, China isn't perfect and has a lot of domestic issues. But on the global stage, they sure look better than the alternative.

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#533

Post by breppp »

dylan604 wrote: post #510
breppp wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One example is that a totalitarian government known for erasing historical record of its crimes will control an arbitrator of truth.

so what? this has nothing to do with them taking from those that took before them. china censoring information they do not like is nothing new and seems irrelevant to this conversation

Fair enough you don't care, some people might want to know about the Uyghur happy camps, mass organ harvesting and such.

In a world where information sources are only going to dwindle, it is not in anyone's interest to empower actors that will use these to manipulate perceptions

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#534

Post by usef- »

trhway wrote: post #506
usef- wrote: post #480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They do seem to be paying for it (as per the 1.5Bil lawsuit yesterday and them now purchasing books and licensing from media companies). Whether we think they're paying enough is another question, but "I'm paying for content so can protect it" doesn't seem inconsistent. We may decide that giving models away for free means they don't have to license content (judging by HN comments), but currently that doesn't seem to…

The judge found their use is fair use. They are paying not for their use of the content, they are paying for using illegal copies of the content. The same principle can be applied to distillation - it is a fair use. You just shouldn't use illegal ways to access the models being distilled. To the commenter below: if it is illegal - has the police/FBI report been made? Otherwise it is just a civil court matter.

Fair, but isn't "illegal" access what they're talking about in OP?

It does seem to be becoming the norm for AI companies to licence premium content in America, judging by the deals they're making. It doesn't seem to be done by the international distillers. It's a cost that American open models will seem to have to pay but not international.

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#535

Post by arbitrary_name »

Bratmon wrote: post #355
remus wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree on a moral level, I think there is a distinction to be made. Training a SOTA model takes a huge amount of resources and expertise so the people doing the training are adding a lot of value along the way. I think this is much less true for distillation (which is kind of the whole point). ed: to clarify, I totally agree that a huge chunk of the value in LLMs is coming from the source material. My point wa…

I like this comment because its argument only makes sense if you assume that the entire world's output of books and art did not require a huge amount of resources and expertise to make, nor did it add any value. It's the most CS-major take ever!

there is a major god complex here.

MBAs and non technical managers = inept Catbert-type charlatans.

Software engineers, devs, etc = geniuses capable of mastering any domain, innate ability to be right on any topic.

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#536

Post by thewebguyd »

titanomachy wrote: post #352
Gajurgensen wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is incredibly important to whether the US can maintain its AI lead. If foreign competition is closing the gap only by distillation, then the frontier labs can focus on preventing distillation and maintain their lead that way. US dominance is also important for approaches to safety, especially political approaches. If the frontier models are all US-based, safety might be tackled via internal US policy. If other cou…

Do Americans even believe that US policy is likely to steer development in a way that’s safe and beneficial for humanity? The rest of the world certainly doesn’t. The US currently seems to primarily use their superpower status to be the world’s number one shit disturber and geopolitical antagonist. I don’t think China’s necessarily any better, but I’d rather have the most powerful models be open rather than under the…

> Do Americans even believe that US policy is likely to steer development in a way that’s safe and beneficial for humanity?

No, at least not outside of this forum.

We all mostly think these models and US policy are going to drive the exact opposite of that. Wealth will continue to get extracted and funneled to the top, and the rest of us are going to be left with the scraps and left to die while what little social safety nets we had continue to get eroded away alongside losing our jobs.

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#537

Post by thewebguyd »

applfanboysbgon wrote: post #318
insanitybit wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is presumably against their ToS.

And why, pray tell, would a cabinet member of the Trump administration be involving the US government in enforcing a private ToS?

Whoever Anthropic just bought when they doubled their political spending to $40 million just recently for "Pushing for AI safety"

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#538

Post by Perenti »

sleepyguy wrote: post #211

Is this a surprise, I think history has proven that the Chinese technology theft is part of their strategy. They let the American tax payer or "The West" shoulder the cost and then steal it. Waiting for the whataboutism....junk away...

Yes, China stole the recipe for pasta and noodles from America. China stole gunpowder from America. China stole printing from America. China stole the idea of paper money from America. China stole the idea of entry exams from America. China stole the invention of the rocket from America. Seriously, do you really believe this American Bubble bullshit that everything of value was invented in the USA?

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#539

Post by robocat »

xienze wrote: post #514
robocat wrote: post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're both reading tea leaves. Settling just says that they expected the internal costs or risks to be more than 1.5 billion cashflow. In the $65B in Series H funding at $965B post-money valuation they said their run-rate revenue crossed $47B annualised. With those numbers, there can be sound financial reasons for wanting to just get rid of the lawsuit. Also if it ends up that other competitors also need to pay $1.5…

> With those numbers, there can be sound financial reasons for wanting to just get rid of the lawsuit. Yes, of course, on Anthropic's side. Why would the other side agree to a settlement?

Perhaps Anthropic is indirectly paying to have their competitors sued...

My narritive is that the terms of the settlement would be full and final.

It was a class action, with payment going to authors and publishers, and the legal team will get paid too.

My guess is that funding is a major issue for the legal team. Authors presumably can't pay for lawyers unless a percentage of winnings, although publishers may have invested.

But the legal team will ask the beneficiaries to use some of the warchest to fund different campaigns against every other AI company. I would assume the legal team wants to win again. They've now got a good story to sell to rights holders, who presumably like money and don't like risks.

I haven't even got to my armchair yet this morning.

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#540

Post by thewebguyd »

qwertox wrote: post #67
throwa356262 wrote: post #12

Kimi K3 was released July 16, Fable ban was lifted on July 1 but access was still limited. How did Moonshot "distil" a huge model in such short time and still had time to run the benchmarks and do the usual release thingies? I think Anthropic is desperate to stop foreign competition and the administration is happy to help because they too are heavily invested in these companies

It looks like these frontier-model companies don't really monitor their systems. Like OpenAI not realizing that it is their own AI which is attacking HuggingFace.

> Like OpenAI not realizing that it is their own AI which is attacking HuggingFace

Or, they knew and let it continue because they are not a good company.

"Never attribute to malice.." blah blah, I have a hard time believing the very smart people at OpenAI would just let their off leash model run hands off with no monitoring and not immediately pull the plug when it jumped its containment.

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