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Ethics Is the Skill That Matters Most Now

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Re: Ethics Is the Skill That Matters Most Now

#51
I love the idea of Ethics in technology. I love the move to bring more Ethics and Morality into technology. I love discussing our place in a crazy marketplace that is the current technology space. I'm sure LLMs and their capabilities are on most people's mind, especially when you think of how people can be differentiated from them. This is a conversation that really should be had in a deep and thoughtful way.

Unfortunately, most of my interest in this article was stifled by the LLM writing. All the wind left my sails when I realized that this website is trying to sell something. Content-wise this article is actually very forgettable. It essentially boils down to:

> Machines can't think, only you can think; and LLMS make bad actors way more powerful. This website will help you think (and stop you from becoming a sucker).

It's trying to sell self-improvement, to make those who are ethically inclined take an AI test. Either the "free" test means that your free-text responses are all being trained on/sold, or they plan to sell you "insights" on your "ethical profile". I'm not against making money; am I the only one who found this monetization a little insidious and manipulative?

Frankly, I'd rather not put my eggs in this LLM shaped basket. Rather I'm going to continue to think critically about myself, write my own self-diagnosis along with talking to friends and family. If I get really worried, I'll get therapy and I already volunteer at church regularly (insert your own way of giving back to the community). Self-reflection is important; if this tool does it for you, then go for it. I, for one, would much rather keep my "human-ness training" in the hands of humans.

Re: Ethics Is the Skill That Matters Most Now

#52
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's so banal and middle-of-the-road it has to be AI generated.

Can I take another stab at it? I take back what I said in my flagged comment. Could you elaborate on why the ethical points and the erosion of leadership in the article are banal and middle-of-the-road?

With pleasure. The article is pretty much on point but the prose makes it difficult to build sympathy with it. It feels sterile, lacking in conviction and generally detracts from the point. It's an emotional plea without any emotion.

Re: Ethics Is the Skill That Matters Most Now

#53
post #15

> So the filter runs, generation after generation, and what comes out the top is disproportionately people who lie well and feel nothing about it. Not because voters want liars, but because the machinery reliably promotes them. The reason is that 99% of states are monarchies, and there is immense propaganda effort to make people believe that they in fact live in a democratic system. Hollywood and the startup world en…

>Hollywood and the startup world enables nepo kids to lie to themselves and to the public about their "selfmade" status until they receive their ancestral Lordship from the King of England, and this fake meritocracy keeps everyone in line trying their best because one day you could be a billionaire, too.

What about the exceptions? Doesn't that disprove the theory? You mentioned Hollywood. There has been a lot of malaise the last few years that many of the new "stars" are just kids of existing famous actors. Hollywood is already a extremely tiny industry(Only about 6% of the actual LA economy).

Then comes along an independent movie like Obsession, breaks so many records and launching its star actress into an overnight rising star. This is a person who has no familial history in the industry and was walking dogs for a year and a half to pay rent because no roles were landing.

Re: Ethics Is the Skill That Matters Most Now

#54
post #28

The bottom line of the article: Intelligence is being automated. Judgment is not. This is true. Like with a lot of similar takes on AI, tacit knowledge is not easy to add to the AI’s training set.

it isnt particularly true, when other ML models have been shown to reinforce the ethics of the training data, eg. racism in hiring.

judgement is being added, and its hard to tell exactly what judgement it is and whether you agree or not

Re: Ethics Is the Skill That Matters Most Now

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could argue that in a corrupt system, ethics tends to work against the interests of that system... but I'd say at the civilizational level they're indispensable, and going back to Aristotle ethics is rooted at the civilizational level (or some would say at the God-and-man level with necessary implications for civilization). A lot of our relatively new institutions are set up to run like perpetual-motion machines…

This is a conjecture that ethics emanates from the whole of society and somehow keeps the things from falling apart and then explains it to have cyclical nature. I don't think ethics exists anywhere other than impressionate minds and words on paper.

> I don't think ethics exists anywhere other than impressionate minds and words on paper.

Same as law. The only difference is enforcement.

> This is a conjecture that ethics emanates from the whole of society and somehow keeps the things from falling apart

If something doesn't emanate from the whole of society and doesn't keep it from falling apart - the society will fall apart and seize to exist as a whole. We may call that "something" ethics just to give a clear meaning to that word and repair some of the immeasurable damage done to it by modern philosophy. Only then ethics can be used as one of the foundations of law.

> and then explains it to have cyclical nature.

The hopes of self-repairing cyclical nature are a coping mechanism that seeks to avoid the reality of self-destructive cycles - the repairs are never complete, destruction accumulates until repairs are no longer possible.

Re: Ethics Is the Skill That Matters Most Now

#56
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can I take another stab at it? I take back what I said in my flagged comment. Could you elaborate on why the ethical points and the erosion of leadership in the article are banal and middle-of-the-road?

With pleasure. The article is pretty much on point but the prose makes it difficult to build sympathy with it. It feels sterile, lacking in conviction and generally detracts from the point. It's an emotional plea without any emotion.

I understand and aesthetics is pretty underestimated. If you want to get a message across, the form, the medium and the public needs to be accounted for. In this sense I totally agree.

But that kinda reminds me of the Chinese room thought experiment [1]. Is there anywhere in the latent space of the LLM a result that takes into account all these factors cited before? What kind of prompts or prompt orchestration would be necessary to achieve it? Would we still be able to tell the difference?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room

Re: Ethics Is the Skill That Matters Most Now

#57

> This is a selection problem, not a character problem. This is a times problem, not a selection problem. The unipolar world order is ending, and everyone responds by turning inward and looking for strong leaders who will protect them against the rest.

It remains to be seen if this will stick. The jury is still out:

In favor of this: US is having trouble projecting its desires onto others now. Its citizens are not in a good spot, hyper concentration of wealth and a growing distrust in the system.

Against this: China is suffering from a upcoming demographic implosion that they have no immediate solution for. This will lead to a slow in their growth, insane senior care obligations and a current youth unemployment of 25% will lead to long term limits on these peoples potential. What might seem like a rising power might actually be more of a paper tiger than the US, its just easier for them to hide it for now.

There is no "third" super power as everywhere else is much worse in some area (demographics, limited population, limited resources). I've said this before elsewhere but maybe the US just has to outlast China.

Re: Ethics Is the Skill That Matters Most Now

#58
post #47
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...do....do you think that's a gotcha? Yes , if we had considered ethics in the past, we wouldn't have committed bloody genocide on the Native Americans. We would probably have tried to open up mutually beneficial trade with them. (Sadly, we probably would still have caused the deaths of millions of them simply due to pathogens we didn't know we were carrying when we met them.) Do you think that would have made thing…

No! Not their values, my values because my values are the best. So ya, it's a hard problem.

Nah, moral relativism is bullshit.

Sure, I can acknowledge that there may be values out there that are better than my values. That doesn't mean I have to say that people whose values are antithetical to mine—whose values are essentially "I can, should, and will take anything I want, no matter the cost to other people"—are just as good.

Re: Ethics Is the Skill That Matters Most Now

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a conjecture that ethics emanates from the whole of society and somehow keeps the things from falling apart and then explains it to have cyclical nature. I don't think ethics exists anywhere other than impressionate minds and words on paper.

> I don't think ethics exists anywhere other than impressionate minds and words on paper. Same as law. The only difference is enforcement. > This is a conjecture that ethics emanates from the whole of society and somehow keeps the things from falling apart If something doesn't emanate from the whole of society and doesn't keep it from falling apart - the society will fall apart and seize to exist as a whole. We may c…

[dead]

Re: Ethics Is the Skill That Matters Most Now

#60
post #15

> So the filter runs, generation after generation, and what comes out the top is disproportionately people who lie well and feel nothing about it. Not because voters want liars, but because the machinery reliably promotes them. The reason is that 99% of states are monarchies, and there is immense propaganda effort to make people believe that they in fact live in a democratic system. Hollywood and the startup world en…

>Hollywood and the startup world enables nepo kids to lie to themselves and to the public about their "selfmade" status until they receive their ancestral Lordship from the King of England, and this fake meritocracy keeps everyone in line trying their best because one day you could be a billionaire, too. What about the exceptions? Doesn't that disprove the theory? You mentioned Hollywood. There has been a lot of mala…

The audience still recognizes talent, but talent is far from everything one needs to be successful.

For every new star that suddenly "pops up everywhere" I recommend a journey through newspaper [0] and government archives based on their family names.

Here [1] you can check if the family has their own island, e.g. Trump island near Seattle/Canada with historic Swastika/KKK-shaped house that accidentally burnt down in 2019 or the other two Trump islands in Newfoundland (near Greenland).

Here [2] you can check if their family name was mentioned in US state department telegrams or as a government contractor ("Sweeney", "Graham").

Here you can check if their family name has its roots in Broadway [3], in Movies [4] or neither.

Bonus points if the family name is also the name of a country or a region ("Wales", "Holland", ...).

Of course there is always the official rags-to-riches story and the official CV and the curated Wikipedia page, plus the good old days where you could fake your SSN and travel with multiple passports, so be careful before accusing someone.

[0] https://www.newspapers.com (trial version)

[1] https://edits.nationalmap.gov/apps/gaz-domestic/public/searc...

[2] https://aad.archives.gov/aad/index.jsp

[3] https://www.ibdb.com/Person/IndexSearch?Keyword=epstein

[4] https://www.imdb.com/find/?q=epstein&s=nm

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