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“We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

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Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#401

Post by InsideOutSanta »

remus wrote: post #265
jaggederest wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps even more importantly, the current frontier LLM models are self-admittedly the product of enormous quantities of copyright infringement and even less savory inputs, so calling them out for distilling the fruit of that tainted tree reads as highly hypocritical at best.

While I agree on a moral level, I think there is a distinction to be made. Training a SOTA model takes a huge amount of resources and expertise so the people doing the training are adding a lot of value along the way. I think this is much less true for distillation (which is kind of the whole point). ed: to clarify, I totally agree that a huge chunk of the value in LLMs is coming from the source material. My point wa…

As an author, that's a genuinely disheartening thing to read.

It took me a year to write a book. It took OpenAI and Anthropic a fraction of a second to ingest it. Do you understand now why I give zero shits if it takes Anthropic a billion to train a model, and Moonshot 10k in API cost to distill it?

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#402

Post by CuriouslyC »

titanomachy wrote: post #352
Gajurgensen wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is incredibly important to whether the US can maintain its AI lead. If foreign competition is closing the gap only by distillation, then the frontier labs can focus on preventing distillation and maintain their lead that way. US dominance is also important for approaches to safety, especially political approaches. If the frontier models are all US-based, safety might be tackled via internal US policy. If other cou…

Do Americans even believe that US policy is likely to steer development in a way that’s safe and beneficial for humanity? The rest of the world certainly doesn’t. The US currently seems to primarily use their superpower status to be the world’s number one shit disturber and geopolitical antagonist. I don’t think China’s necessarily any better, but I’d rather have the most powerful models be open rather than under the…

China uses its power to make favorable deals and get people hooked on what it's slinging so it has captive customers. The US uses its power to bully and break rules that apply to everyone else for its own benefit. Kind of a big difference.

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#404

Post by InsideOutSanta »

petilon wrote: post #323
jaggederest wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps even more importantly, the current frontier LLM models are self-admittedly the product of enormous quantities of copyright infringement and even less savory inputs, so calling them out for distilling the fruit of that tainted tree reads as highly hypocritical at best.

I disagree that LLM models are the product of enormous quantities of copyright infringement. The recent announcement that AI-assisted research produced a counterexample to the Jacobian conjecture--a long-standing open problem in algebraic geometry--shows the original value AI can create. The result was not copied from a textbook; it emerged from AI learning from existing material, much as a human does, and then apply…

If you re-read your comment, you will find that your second paragraph is not evidence for the claim you make in your first paragraph. In fact, your first paragraph is just false.

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#405

Post by blks »

remus wrote: post #265
jaggederest wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps even more importantly, the current frontier LLM models are self-admittedly the product of enormous quantities of copyright infringement and even less savory inputs, so calling them out for distilling the fruit of that tainted tree reads as highly hypocritical at best.

While I agree on a moral level, I think there is a distinction to be made. Training a SOTA model takes a huge amount of resources and expertise so the people doing the training are adding a lot of value along the way. I think this is much less true for distillation (which is kind of the whole point). ed: to clarify, I totally agree that a huge chunk of the value in LLMs is coming from the source material. My point wa…

They add value on top of other people’s work, often against licensing, and then commercialize this product, ie profiting from making a product out of other people’s IP.

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#406

Post by pgt »

himata4113 wrote: post #62

Does this matter? Distillation is not illegal by every definition of the word. There are millions of samples available on huggingface and models explicitely trained on output produced by fable. There has been no action taken against them. Another example is that it appears that the upper limit of what you can do is ultimately dependent on people working on the model, otherwise grok would be a LOT more competitive pre…

It matters because it means that lab could not train that model without distilling another frontier model, and their progress would slow once they get properly cut-off. If I funded that lab, I would want to know that.

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#407

Post by blks »

bluegatty wrote: post #379
Bratmon wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like this comment because its argument only makes sense if you assume that the entire world's output of books and art did not require a huge amount of resources and expertise to make, nor did it add any value. It's the most CS-major take ever!

This is a misrepresentation though. The LLM output, is not the same as the input - there is value add. Of course works used as raw inputs to LLMs required work and are reasonably subject to IP concerns - but they are different. It's possible that the LLM makers 'owe' the content creators that created the content they used to make their products - it's an interesting but separate question. We could very well end up wh…

Lossly storing IP in LLM itself, and using IP for training (so it’s lossly stored in LLM), without licensing these works or otherwise following license agreements (eg GPL) is infringement. Using then this product for commercial activity is a smoking gun.

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#408

Post by matheusmoreira »

Matl wrote: post #98
madduci wrote: post #55

So what is the issue here? Distilling is still fair, on the same level like Anthropic scraped copyright protected material for their training. So here robbers are blaming robbers? These claims are just pointless, everytime

> So what is the issue here? The issue seems to be the US only likes competition when it is winning. Markets in Asia are meant for cheap labor and resources, they're not meant to actually compete. /s

> The issue seems to be the US only likes competition when it is winning.

This. Free markets for everyone when they're the dominant economic force. Protectionism, tariffs and import/export controls when they're not.

It's so disgusting.

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#409

Post by spaceman_2020 »

voidnullvalue wrote: post #248
spaceman_2020 wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My parents put in countless hours and tens of thousands of dollars into raising me to the point where I could write an answer on StackOverflow And OpenAI scraped and distilled that answer and gave me nothing

And now people such as myself have access to open weight models with that information. I wasn't lucky enough to have parents put me through school, and LLMs have absolutely helped me further educate myself and play "catch up" on opportunities others have been given. So, the net effect has been (and is continuing to be) a democratization of information.

Democratization of information, but Sam Altman gets a $100B net worth and I'm still broke :)

I would prefer some sort of democratiziation of the money made from the democratization of information as well

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#410

Post by cregy »

I think the major take away is, Chinese labs are very good at stealing others AI work and offering it did a fraction of the cost. This will be the reason the AI stock market bubble bursts. Unless they add in protection similar to patents, which stops these copied models being used by business.
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