Live data from Hacker News

Everyone should know SIMD

mitchellh.com

21–30 of 263 posts

Re: Everyone should know SIMD

#21
post #14

i was having a conversation with a friend recently about simd in zig (which i have recently picked up and been having a pretty good time with). i find that simd writes decently well, though there's a few weird things: - some builtins purport to work on simd vectors but actually just unpack the vectors and do their work per-element (e.g. running `@sin()` on a `@Vector(4, f32)` will unpack the vector, run `@sin()` 4 ti…

> some builtins purport to work on simd vectors but actually just unpack the vectors and do their work per-element (e.g. running `@sin()` on a `@Vector(4, f32)` will unpack the vector, run `@sin()` 4 times, and then pack it back into a vector).

this is reasonable because there isn't really a generalizable "good way" to unroll trig functions for simd. if you really care about speed youre better off implementing to the precision you care about (you might not want full precision)

Re: Everyone should know SIMD

#22
post #14

i was having a conversation with a friend recently about simd in zig (which i have recently picked up and been having a pretty good time with). i find that simd writes decently well, though there's a few weird things: - some builtins purport to work on simd vectors but actually just unpack the vectors and do their work per-element (e.g. running `@sin()` on a `@Vector(4, f32)` will unpack the vector, run `@sin()` 4 ti…

> some builtins purport to work on simd vectors but actually just unpack the vectors and do their work per-element (e.g. running `@sin()` on a `@Vector(4, f32)` will unpack the vector, run `@sin()` 4 times, and then pack it back into a vector). this is reasonable because there isn't really a generalizable "good way" to unroll trig functions for simd. if you really care about speed youre better off implementing to the…

I bet there's a better way than unpacking, running sequentially and repacking. Even if the algorithm is very branchy you save a pack and unpack.

Re: Everyone should know SIMD

#23
"More importantly, when this loop matters enough for me to care about a 5x speedup, I want the vectorization to be explicit and predictable. I don't want an unrelated code change or compiler update to quietly turn it back into a scalar loop."

Only tangentially related but this is by far the most painful part about optimizing code for JIT compilers like V8. Even changing a constant from 1 to 1.0 somewhere else can change the optimizations performed and lead to an unexpected performance decrease.

Re: Everyone should know SIMD

#24
I like SIMD, but before super-optimizing your code with SIMD and the like, really consider your data structures and access patterns.

I've been singing Data-Oriented Design's praises, so I'll just collect all my comments here [1], but I think it's a good approach to optimization. I played around with SIMD in my old code (in Zig), but my approach to modelling datastructures was so antithetical to optimization, it was like putting high-performance racing tires on a lemon with a broken engine.

It was the root-of-all-evil-type-premature-optimization, because I wasn't measuring performance, and I wasn't thinking about where the allocations were, etc. Now, I try to model my data as if it were SQL tables, see what my potential "primary keys" could be, and build my data structures around my access patterns.

For example, I used to model trees as structs pointing to other structs on the heap:

    struct Tree {
        tag: TreeTag,
        children: Vec
    }
Now my tree has all the bad characteristics of a linked list (* n nodes * m children), all the fragmentation of multiple heap vectors (* n nodes), and terrible set-up / tear-down time (in this case, Drop alone was taking up a good chunk of runtime).

But a tree can be represented a million ways, and can always be linearized. So now I really consider my access/insert patterns of the tree, whether it's really a tree or some other sort of graph, whether I can store it in a Vec or a Struct of Vecs, etc. Since really looking at things through their access patterns and "primary keys", my code has been much faster and simpler.

This has the added effect that a lot of your data ends up in homogeneous arrays / vecs, which means that the compiler can do its SIMD magic, the CPU can read it from your L1 cache a million times faster, etc. And then when you need to drop down into SIMD yourself, you can write some awesome branchless code.

1. https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

Re: Everyone should know SIMD

#25
post #14

i was having a conversation with a friend recently about simd in zig (which i have recently picked up and been having a pretty good time with). i find that simd writes decently well, though there's a few weird things: - some builtins purport to work on simd vectors but actually just unpack the vectors and do their work per-element (e.g. running `@sin()` on a `@Vector(4, f32)` will unpack the vector, run `@sin()` 4 ti…

> some builtins purport to work on simd vectors but actually just unpack the vectors and do their work per-element (e.g. running `@sin()` on a `@Vector(4, f32)` will unpack the vector, run `@sin()` 4 times, and then pack it back into a vector). this is reasonable because there isn't really a generalizable "good way" to unroll trig functions for simd. if you really care about speed youre better off implementing to the…

i don't disagree – i have my own internal vector lib of approximations and whatnot for various tradeoffs of precision and speed, so i just use those. it's just that zig has a pretty strong stance of "no unexpected/obscured code execution" so it was surprising to see a vector-capable function that was just a bunch of scalar functions in a trench coat.

maybe functions that don't actually support actual vector execution just shouldn't work on vector arguments. i also wouldn't expect `@sin()` to expand in-place out to a full cephes-like sin implementation. maybe a function call.

Re: Everyone should know SIMD

#26
post #2

I just do gcc -O3 and get SIMD without having to learn it

Most scalar-to-SIMD conversion requires changing the design of data structures and algorithms to be effective. Compilers are required to exactly reproduce the specified data structures in a deterministic way for obvious reasons.

Even if compilers were clever enough to transform your data structures and algorithms for SIMD (they're not), the data structures are a contract that can't be unilaterally modified.

Re: Everyone should know SIMD

#27

I like SIMD, but before super-optimizing your code with SIMD and the like, really consider your data structures and access patterns. I've been singing Data-Oriented Design's praises, so I'll just collect all my comments here [1], but I think it's a good approach to optimization. I played around with SIMD in my old code (in Zig), but my approach to modelling datastructures was so antithetical to optimization, it was l…

Yeah, data layout/cache aware layouts are really key if you really want to unlock making something that ends up in a hot loop fast with SIMD.

Also, avoiding allocations or vtable lookups or a lot of indirection in the part of the code that's actually "hot" is really important. Vectors (in C++) at least aren't necessarily the best fit either, if you end up doing anything that can call an allocation unexpectedly.

Re: Everyone should know SIMD

#28
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ahaaa, yeah, i don't personally do any runtime switching but i hear that as a deal-breaker from other folks. it's interesting – i've found that zig tends to extend my vectors to the native width of the platform and then operate on them there. e.g. i had a `@Vector(2, f32)` that i was using as a demo and the generated assembly was promoting it to 256 bits and using avx2 instructions on it!

> i've found that zig tends to extend my vectors to the native width of the platform and then operate on them there oh interesting. though i suspect that isn't zig and thats llvm.

looks like it – compiled as debug (native linux x64 backend) gives me the vector type i've asked for. release modes extend to the "native" width.

this is testing in isolation as well, could be that in the midst of other vector code it changes things. llvm definitely does a great job optimising tightly-written vector code to be even faster.

Re: Everyone should know SIMD

#29
To bolster the argument, even if you do not plan to write the SIMD yourself or will "just get AI to do it", it is important to know what can be fast in SIMD (and on what hardware). That allows you to design your algorithms and structure your code so that the SIMD is possible.

Internalizing things like how data dependencies matter, how expensive it is to increase the width of your vector elements (and how to avoid the need), how to turn conditions and branches into masks, or simply things like "division does not exist" becomes a lot easier when you have spent at least some time trying to use SIMD yourself.

Re: Everyone should know SIMD

#30
Tangentially for Go programming, the last time I looked at optimising some Go code with SIMD there were a few different options available, but they were either not maintained any more or had incomplete support and required first writing your function in C++ with intrinsics and generating assembly, then converting it to go assembly with a tool [1]. I never got my function to work in go despite the C++ code working fine. In short, not really a production ready option for Go. This was a year or two ago, though.

Edit, there's now an experimental official library at https://go.dev/pkg/simd/archsimd/ see https://go.dev/doc/go1.26#simd and at https://github.com/golang/go/issues/78902 so things have moved since I tried it last.

[1] https://github.com/minio/c2goasm

Post reply on HN