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“We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

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Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#331

Post by petilon »

butlike wrote: post #329
petilon wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree that LLM models are the product of enormous quantities of copyright infringement. The recent announcement that AI-assisted research produced a counterexample to the Jacobian conjecture--a long-standing open problem in algebraic geometry--shows the original value AI can create. The result was not copied from a textbook; it emerged from AI learning from existing material, much as a human does, and then apply…

Yup if a machine kills a human it's not the machine's fault; it's the human's. Humans doing the exact same thing as machines aren't 1:1.

If it is legal for a human to do something then it is legal for a machine to do it too. Are there any counter examples to that?

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#332

Post by [deleted] »

remus wrote: post #265
jaggederest wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps even more importantly, the current frontier LLM models are self-admittedly the product of enormous quantities of copyright infringement and even less savory inputs, so calling them out for distilling the fruit of that tainted tree reads as highly hypocritical at best.

While I agree on a moral level, I think there is a distinction to be made. Training a SOTA model takes a huge amount of resources and expertise so the people doing the training are adding a lot of value along the way. I think this is much less true for distillation (which is kind of the whole point). ed: to clarify, I totally agree that a huge chunk of the value in LLMs is coming from the source material. My point wa…

[deleted]

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#334

Post by amazingamazing »

linkregister wrote: post #301

Commenters are overlooking the significance of this information and posting emotional reactions based on perceptions of fairness or feelings of schadenfreude. The economic viability of Anthropic and OpenAI rely on their being able to charge more for model access than their R&D and inference costs. If the market price for SOTA model access drops below that level, then these businesses will have to decide whether to co…

It doesn’t matter. Distillation is impossible to stop. They could release an extension that intercepts requests and in return gives you a discount like Honey and get the same data.

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#336

Post by xienze »

asadotzler wrote: post #322
Diogenesian wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Keep ruling over and over" is way too strong. There have maybe been two rulings, nothing nationally binding, and most of the litigation is still ongoing. In particular, last I checked OpenAI and Microsoft are still badly threatened by the NYT lawsuit: https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/new-yor... https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/publishers-o... This will have to wait for the Supreme…

Not to mention the cases where the AI labs would have lost in court so bailed and settled for billions. Just this week, Anthropic agreed to pay $1.5B in a settlement to avoid losing a pretty cut and dry case.

> Anthropic agreed to pay $1.5B in a settlement to avoid losing a pretty cut and dry case.

It takes two parties to agree to a settlement. That the other party agreed to a settlement instead of taking it to court implies this was not the slam dunk you may think it was.

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#337

Post by ekelsen »

Reminds me of this classic line from the 1973 movie The Sting:

"What was I supposed to do? Call him for cheating better than me in front of the others?!"

Said in response to being out-cheated at a high-stakes poker game.

Except in this case, it sounds like that's exactly the path they have chosen.

https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/7612c4ce-1077-479f-a7bf-617dbc6...

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#338

Post by jauntywundrkind »

orangecat wrote: post #165
jauntywundrkind wrote: post #69

Two recent ones that really really hit me, > we're entering the most geopolitically volatile moment since the trinity test lit up the alamogordo desert and the only US policy prescription is a big button labeled sinophobia https://bsky.app/profile/thebadcode.com/post/3mr3skoyass2k , and, > every vendor cranking the big dial labeled "sinophobia" and looking back at the us government for approval The government itself…

Not surprising that Bluesky is perpetually in peak woke mode, but the racism claims are absurd. If Russia were doing the same thing, would we have no problem with that because they're white?

This feels radically off target to me.

Sinophobia as such (not always, and there's obviously a relation) isn't about the Chinese people, about their racial identity. It's about a menacing aggressive world power (actually two such MAWPs in this particular example), about a tired anti-Communist McCarthyism (which has always been an excuse to clamp down on the left/progressives, a menace to free speech).

If Russia were still the USSR and the cold war hadn't ended and they were our AI competition, & where giving away the latent matricies of reality that the US profiteers extracted by stealing all the worlds knowledge illegally, and which they want to use to raise the ladder & leave a permanent plebeian underclass, we the US imperial fatcats would be doing the same sabre rattling and fearmongering and tension raising for sure. Sinophobia here is just a particular fear of "other" for the only other that's relevant.

And that sucks, no matter who it is we are trying to other here, no matter what phobia the propagandists of the GOP and Technofascism are spinning, ginning up. To fixate is to be unable to see the point.

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#339

Post by Gajurgensen »

himata4113 wrote: post #62

Does this matter? Distillation is not illegal by every definition of the word. There are millions of samples available on huggingface and models explicitely trained on output produced by fable. There has been no action taken against them. Another example is that it appears that the upper limit of what you can do is ultimately dependent on people working on the model, otherwise grok would be a LOT more competitive pre…

It is incredibly important to whether the US can maintain its AI lead. If foreign competition is closing the gap only by distillation, then the frontier labs can focus on preventing distillation and maintain their lead that way.

US dominance is also important for approaches to safety, especially political approaches. If the frontier models are all US-based, safety might be tackled via internal US policy. If other countries can independently train competitive models, international cooperation is required.

Edit: It is also important for the business model. Companies won't be able to justify tremendous training costs if competitors can replicate their product much more cheaply via distillation.

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