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“We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

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Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#311

Post by asadotzler »

smeeth wrote: post #264
himata4113 wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do agree that two wrongs don't make a right, the terms of service generally gives cooperation the power to sever the contract, but it does not make things illegal in the literal sense. The illegality usually comes from widescale fraud which includes accessing services you are banned from accessing. When I said "Does this matter?" I specially meant that distillation in itself, the data you get from distillation is f…

> The illegality usually comes from widescale fraud which includes accessing services you are banned from accessing. Agree, and this is exactly what Anthropic is alleging. > data you get from distillation is first and foremost not owned by anthropic nor is it copyrightable. If a user willingly gives up their anthropic reasoning data/traces that is 100% legal no matter what the "terms of service" say as it's not enfor…

What precedents can you cite and specific examples of their applicability. That is, what would Anthropic's lawyers take to court? You can't say because there's nothing there that couldn't be ripped apart by the least legally capable community known to man, HN. That's why no lab has succeeded in a suit anything like what you're claiming could happen. The only reason Anthropic or any other lab would pursue this is political or commercial. They're either looking for help from officials or they're trying to establish a particular market position.

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#312

Post by paxys »

bradfa wrote: post #37

I can understand that the AI labs might care about other labs distilling their models as it can eat into their competitive advantage, but do consumers care at all? Aren't consumers benefiting from this practice by getting better cheaper models as a result?

It’s the same as the patent argument. If everyone could freely copy everything then yes in the short term prices would drop and consumers would benefit, but over the long term it would discourage investment into new technology because a return would be impossible.

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#313

Post by [deleted] »

runarberg wrote: post #56
cwmoore wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I still believe taxing the bots, and implementing actual UBI, would address both problems.

And I believe a socialist revolution in international solidarity of the working classes against our exploiters the capitalist owning class would address both problems as well (and more), but in the meantime I’ll be happy whenever I spot poetic justice in the wild.

[deleted]

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#314

Post by VulgarExigency »

azinman2 wrote: post #267
dylan604 wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I don't give a shit that this is happening. It's actually kind of funny to me.

Unless you’re from mainland China, you should.

Why? Should we be held hostage to the whims of these companies and all the investors in the throes of AI psychosis, and let them do whatever the fuck they want, because if we don't then the economy will crash?

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#315

Post by AlanYx »

smeeth wrote: post #144
himata4113 wrote: post #62

Does this matter? Distillation is not illegal by every definition of the word. There are millions of samples available on huggingface and models explicitely trained on output produced by fable. There has been no action taken against them. Another example is that it appears that the upper limit of what you can do is ultimately dependent on people working on the model, otherwise grok would be a LOT more competitive pre…

Uh, what? > Distillation is not illegal by every definition of the word Note that Anthropic (and USG) alleges [0] not only that Kimi was distilled, but that they actively circumvented measures intended to stop distillation. There are multiple ways that's illegal, including: - Civil breach of contract. Anthropic's TOS explicitly say you can't do what Kimi is alleged to have done. - Economic espionage: 18 U.S.C. §1831…

>Civil breach of contract. Anthropic's TOS explicitly say you can't do what Kimi is alleged to have done.

This is true, but Kimi also has a variety of defenses. Kimi can't raise unclean hands if Anthropic systematically violated others' terms of use, but it can raise copyright misuse (which is similar in some respects to unclean hands) as well as lack of standing to enforce restrictions in the contract due to the third party beneficiary principle (i.e., Kimi would argue that Anthropic cannot sue Kimi for derived IP that rightfully belongs to third parties whose terms of use were violated by Anthropic, and the proper party to sue Kimi, if any, would be those third parties). That latter argument usually fails in small-scale cases (ProCD) but has been successful in larger ones where the alternative would be anticompetitive.

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#316

Post by jaggederest »

remus wrote: post #265
jaggederest wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps even more importantly, the current frontier LLM models are self-admittedly the product of enormous quantities of copyright infringement and even less savory inputs, so calling them out for distilling the fruit of that tainted tree reads as highly hypocritical at best.

While I agree on a moral level, I think there is a distinction to be made. Training a SOTA model takes a huge amount of resources and expertise so the people doing the training are adding a lot of value along the way. I think this is much less true for distillation (which is kind of the whole point). ed: to clarify, I totally agree that a huge chunk of the value in LLMs is coming from the source material. My point wa…

I suspect that, in aggregate, all of the informational output of humanity prior to 2020 has taken more resources to produce than the last few years of LLM research.

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#317

Post by softwaredoug »

OpenAI and Anthropic should enter into distillation agreements with other US labs. Turn a threat into a profit center.

Other US labs cannot directly distill from OpenAI/Anthropic as it’s a violation of the terms of service. It holds other US labs back. Leading them to build second tier models And in the end OpenAI/Anthropic may be unable to prevent distillation.

Why fight it when there’s clear money to make here?

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#318

Post by applfanboysbgon »

insanitybit wrote: post #269
himata4113 wrote: post #62

Does this matter? Distillation is not illegal by every definition of the word. There are millions of samples available on huggingface and models explicitely trained on output produced by fable. There has been no action taken against them. Another example is that it appears that the upper limit of what you can do is ultimately dependent on people working on the model, otherwise grok would be a LOT more competitive pre…

It is presumably against their ToS.

And why, pray tell, would a cabinet member of the Trump administration be involving the US government in enforcing a private ToS?

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#319

Post by caconym_ »

ux266478 wrote: post #294
caconym_ wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure if this is implicitly part of the point you meant to make, but I just wanted to point out for those who aren't aware that Chinese EVs and drones are both banned in the US on precisely the (vague) grounds you mention. The drone ban is more recent and nominally only affects new models that haven't yet received FCC certification, but the outcome if nothing changes will be that American consumers lose acces…

> DIY hobbyists may also find it more difficult or impossible to source parts for their projects. I mean not really. A quadrocopter is a remarkably simple thing made out of extremely generic parts: 4 DC motors (and ESCs), a radio, a computer, a battery and an inertial measurement unit. Anybody with a rudimentary amount of electronics knowledge can build one, the components are extremely widely used. The most unique p…

On a certain level you're right, but in practice you're mostly wrong. There is nothing exotic about the electronics found on the average FPV drone, but hobbyists today rely on being able to buy (e.g.) integrated electronic components such as flight controller boards and video transmitters, as well as purpose-optimized components like cameras, motors, and so on. All of these components are much smaller, lighter, and better-performing than the bodged-together setups that were used in the early days of the hobby (e.g. repurposing wireless security camera gear for video), and losing access to them will have a very real effect on what can be built and flown.

Source: I've been flying R/C aircraft of various types for over 30 years. Last year I built, I think, at least 7 FPV drones (a mix of fixed wings and quads).

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#320

Post by causal »

qwertox wrote: post #67
throwa356262 wrote: post #12

Kimi K3 was released July 16, Fable ban was lifted on July 1 but access was still limited. How did Moonshot "distil" a huge model in such short time and still had time to run the benchmarks and do the usual release thingies? I think Anthropic is desperate to stop foreign competition and the administration is happy to help because they too are heavily invested in these companies

It looks like these frontier-model companies don't really monitor their systems. Like OpenAI not realizing that it is their own AI which is attacking HuggingFace.

Yeah if anything it makes Anthropic look incompetent
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