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“We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

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Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#271

Post by well_ackshually »

smeeth wrote: post #144
himata4113 wrote: post #62

Does this matter? Distillation is not illegal by every definition of the word. There are millions of samples available on huggingface and models explicitely trained on output produced by fable. There has been no action taken against them. Another example is that it appears that the upper limit of what you can do is ultimately dependent on people working on the model, otherwise grok would be a LOT more competitive pre…

Uh, what? > Distillation is not illegal by every definition of the word Note that Anthropic (and USG) alleges [0] not only that Kimi was distilled, but that they actively circumvented measures intended to stop distillation. There are multiple ways that's illegal, including: - Civil breach of contract. Anthropic's TOS explicitly say you can't do what Kimi is alleged to have done. - Economic espionage: 18 U.S.C. §1831…

I hope Anthropic pays you a lot to defend them this hard <3

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#272

Post by sailingparrot »

strictnein wrote: post #256

[flagged]

Yes they distill, but if you think you can trivially get a frontier-level model by "just" distilling from Claude's public API. you fundamentally do not understand the amount of work that goes into a modern post-training stack.

Without even talking about the fact that any distillation that was done was on Opus, as the timeline of Mythos/Fable vs Kimi 3 release dates just do not match in any plausible way.

If you want to read an educated take from someone that has actually spent the last few years working on post training I recommend Nathan Lambert's: https://x.com/natolambert/status/2079616308203942332

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#274

Post by mcphage »

smeeth wrote: post #163
zaptheimpaler wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of the models stole the entirety of written knowledge on the internet to train. They are being sued for the few cases where we have some proof of what they did because of some whistleblowers, all the rest will just go unpunished. They breached Github TOS, robot.txt's, copyright, patents every form of IP protection under the sun from a billion sources. It's just ridiculous for the thieves to cry about someone else…

Do you care about the law or not? I think theft is bad everywhere, not just when Anthropic does it.

> I think theft is bad everywhere, not just when Anthropic does it.

It seems like you think theft is bad everywhere except when Anthropic does it.

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#276

Post by buellerbueller »

unethical_ban wrote: post #198
Der_Einzige wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You just told on yourself big time about being a lapdog for the US Feds. Easily one of the worst moderation decisions you’ve ever made and that’s impressive given your track record.

Telling someone to have more than 20 characters in a comment on HN is bootlicking? Absolute lunacy.

Requiring someone to have more than 20 characters, when 20 or fewer will do perfectly? Yes.

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#277

Post by trollbridge »

SubiculumCode wrote: post #227
andyfilms1 wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, so mass theft is okay as long as American companies are doing it

Moreover, reading a copyrighted book and learning from it is not theft.

Great! Neither is distillation then.

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#278

Post by darod »

remus wrote: post #265
jaggederest wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps even more importantly, the current frontier LLM models are self-admittedly the product of enormous quantities of copyright infringement and even less savory inputs, so calling them out for distilling the fruit of that tainted tree reads as highly hypocritical at best.

While I agree on a moral level, I think there is a distinction to be made. Training a SOTA model takes a huge amount of resources and expertise so the people doing the training are adding a lot of value along the way. I think this is much less true for distillation (which is kind of the whole point). ed: to clarify, I totally agree that a huge chunk of the value in LLMs is coming from the source material. My point wa…

You can argue that reverse engineering anything is as hard if not harder than engineering something. I can’t imagine distillation is any different.

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#279

Post by bigfishrunning »

SubiculumCode wrote: post #227
andyfilms1 wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, so mass theft is okay as long as American companies are doing it

Moreover, reading a copyrighted book and learning from it is not theft.

Generating a set of weights is not learning.
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