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“We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

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Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#251

Post by kamranjon »

So here is an important question I think.

If LLM outputs aren't copywriteable and you create your own synthetic training set using Fable and share it publicly on huggingface, and someone else uses that training set to fine-tune a model, would this be considered illegal?

I ask because this happens all the time, synthetic datasets have basically become a key aspect of training a model at this point. I even generated a synthetic set from DeepSeek v4 to aid in fine-tuning a classifier just a few weeks ago.

So I just wonder on what grounds any of this makes sense, I wouldn't be surprised if some of these American labs were using open models on their own self hosted infrastructure to generate training data, but by nature of them being open nobody has to know.

I'll make a prediction: I don't think we will ever see any of the evidence of this "distillation" before they end up implementing some type of ban.

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#252

Post by unethical_ban »

onraglanroad wrote: post #177
unethical_ban wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me put it in an HN-acceptable format: Given the disregard for intellectual property rights the AI labs had in creating the technology, many people feel no sympathy for second-order AI labs using similar techniques to build technology off the US frontier labs. I think fighting distillation will always be cat-and-mouse, and that it's more of a concern for the stockholders and perhaps an iota of national security. I…

That's a better comment but > Societies throughout history have taken as a given their power to overthrow malicious governments when things hit a breaking point, simply isn't true. People throughout history have simply accepted that society is the way it is and sometimes used whatever means they could to get to the top. Revolutions have been very rare and usually ended up with the revolutionaries simply taking the pl…

Then let's call it a reset, one way or the other. I'm afraid society won't be able to hit the reset button on a government in the future.

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#253

Post by econ »

I have an idea! If they are so hungry for citable content they should start a cheap or free blogging platform with images and video and a blogroll and verified credentials and resumes, with your own html css etc and domain name and a git server and a mail client and their own advertisement platform and aggregator and a chat platform, scientific journals too obviously, tools for writing and publishing books and documents. API available everywhere to avoid training on its own output.

Because there is no way in hell I'm going to make an effort creating quality content for existing platforms. The website should be entirely my own without moderation subject only to my local legal system.

Can just insert this comment as a prompt and vibe code everything in a few days⸮

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#254

Post by dylan604 »

jaggederest wrote: post #142
himata4113 wrote: post #62

Does this matter? Distillation is not illegal by every definition of the word. There are millions of samples available on huggingface and models explicitely trained on output produced by fable. There has been no action taken against them. Another example is that it appears that the upper limit of what you can do is ultimately dependent on people working on the model, otherwise grok would be a LOT more competitive pre…

Perhaps even more importantly, the current frontier LLM models are self-admittedly the product of enormous quantities of copyright infringement and even less savory inputs, so calling them out for distilling the fruit of that tainted tree reads as highly hypocritical at best.

This is why I don't give a shit that this is happening. It's actually kind of funny to me.

Re: “We have information that Moonshot distilled Fable for the development of K3”

#258

Post by kevinqi »

mring33621 wrote: post #181
kevinqi wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree distillation isn't illegal; I also think Moonshot/Kimi is very impressive. But the more interesting question is whether labs like Moonshot can be a real competitor to OpenAI/Anthropic. If you can only play catchup (however quickly you do that), then you're never going to be at the frontier - I think that's why distillation matters.

People that think the Chinese are only able to copy western tech are in for a wakeup call. Actually, that has already happened in many domains, it's just that most western people (USA especially) won't admit it.

my assertion isn't that china isn't able to surpass western AI. I think it may well happen. I've been to china many times and am well aware of how ahead they are in many technological/societal areas.

at the same time, I don't buy the idea that distillation is unimportant in assessing what Chinese labs are capable of. If it wasn't, why did Kimi's release timing coincide so well with Fable's launch?

and if Anthropic hadn't released Fable, would we have Kimi today? If the answer is no, then I think that's still a very important point to consider.

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