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Ethics Is the Skill That Matters Most Now

agonora.com

31–40 of 68 posts

Re: Ethics Is the Skill That Matters Most Now

#31
post #15

> So the filter runs, generation after generation, and what comes out the top is disproportionately people who lie well and feel nothing about it. Not because voters want liars, but because the machinery reliably promotes them. The reason is that 99% of states are monarchies, and there is immense propaganda effort to make people believe that they in fact live in a democratic system. Hollywood and the startup world en…

Excellent post. Interesting that "ethics" is something society expects from normal folks, but the Big Important Leaders never have that concern.

Re: Ethics Is the Skill That Matters Most Now

#32

I agree with most of what it says there and the overall sentiment. Two notes: 1. Whoever wrote this, add your name there. Otherwise it is a 0.2x credibility multiplier. 2. I like this topic a lot and would like to discuss it with others that also like it a lot. Reach out (email in my profile), let's make a small discussion group around this :).

> Reach out (email in my profile),

Meta thought: Having recently learned of WeChat Groups in China, I'm now repeatedly noticing situations where familiar alternatives are higher friction.

Re: Ethics Is the Skill That Matters Most Now

#33
This piece fails to understand that, in general, ethics depends on what side you are on. In hindsight, the winner's notion of right and wrong usually dominates.

If ethics mattered, the colonists wouldn't have taken America or slaves. If pre-existing laws mattered, America would have lost the revolutionary war (America legally belonged to the king). If ethics mattered, anyone who made money in cigarettes would be in prison. If ethics mattered, Zuckerberg and his cronies would be in prison.

If you had been concerned about ethics in the past, you would have failed to create America and failed to create Facebook, etc. In my moral framework, the worst (i.e. greediest, most selfish, anti-social) people have been winning over the last 20-40 years.

This dude needs to read some actual philosophy and then ponder it and write it himself, rather than using AI.

Re: Ethics Is the Skill That Matters Most Now

#34

[flagged]

Machiavellian ethics is also ethics. Ethics has very little to do with how to be good in some public opinion sense. The core question of ethics is what is the appropriate action in a given circumstance. It's an open question that has a lot of different answers.

The opposite of ethics arguably isn't evil, but moral incontinence.

Re: Ethics Is the Skill That Matters Most Now

#35
post #25

This AI written article seems to be substituting ethics for “taste” and making similar arguments to those from the past. Choosing what to do is more important than doing it is a taste problem, of which ethics is an aspect but one of many.

This kind of god-of-the-gaps thing is kind of amusing to watch, especially since I can clearly see myself doing it over time.

Even if the models never get better than they are now, which is unlikely, they're already equipped to usurp taste, ethics, and everything else to a significant degree. Human feedback will always be valuable because we assign value to human feedback, but if you don't think an ethics-bot will ever be a thing, you're not seeing the current state of things.

Re: Ethics Is the Skill That Matters Most Now

#36

This piece fails to understand that, in general, ethics depends on what side you are on. In hindsight, the winner's notion of right and wrong usually dominates. If ethics mattered, the colonists wouldn't have taken America or slaves. If pre-existing laws mattered, America would have lost the revolutionary war (America legally belonged to the king). If ethics mattered, anyone who made money in cigarettes would be in p…

...do....do you think that's a gotcha?

Yes, if we had considered ethics in the past, we wouldn't have committed bloody genocide on the Native Americans. We would probably have tried to open up mutually beneficial trade with them. (Sadly, we probably would still have caused the deaths of millions of them simply due to pathogens we didn't know we were carrying when we met them.) Do you think that would have made things worse now?

> In my moral framework, the worst (i.e. greediest, most selfish, anti-social) people have been winning over the last 20-40 years.

This sounds an awful lot like a "might makes right" attitude: "Sure, they're awful people, but they're winning, so we should adhere to their values!"

Re: Ethics Is the Skill That Matters Most Now

#37
I appreciate that this is a topic of discussion, whatever defects the author's post contains, both explicit and tacit.

Some commentary:

1. Ethics is the practical science (in the broader classical sense, not the narrow empirical sense) of right action. But what determines right action? I'll make a stronger and more complete claim: it is the study of human nature, its ultimate end, and the principles that guide us there. Ethics is, therefore, about the principles that underpin the good life. Without its grounding in human nature, and without an end inherent to human nature, there is no ethics. An action's goodness can only be measured in relation to human nature and an end. Anything else is arbitrary and meaningless, hence the widespread and childish conviction that morality is just some set of made-up rules, or perhaps some otherworldly feeling of a gnostic variety. Ethics, morality, and virtue are not external things that we can sometimes appeal to and sometimes not. They concern our condition as human beings at all times and every single decision we make.

2. What the author is talking about when he calls ethics a skill is really personal morality and virtue. Am I a virtuous person? Do I do what I ought or do I habitually choose to do what I ought not to? Ethics helps us clarify our understanding of the underlying principles governing morality, but morality and virtue as such involve their concrete application. Prudence is nothing but the ability to discern what the right decision is here and now and in this situation. It is effectively the skill of applying general moral principles to particular circumstances.

3. A good society requires good members. As bad as collectivism is, this is one reason why libertarian hyper-individualism is also bogus. We are social animals. Our good is not sealed off from the good of society. Our personal immoralities don't just affect us; they affect the society we live in. We are our morality, as it were. If you're a crappy person, you drag the condition of society down. You have a moral duty to be good, and since you are a social animal, that also means you are obligated to be just and even charitable as prudence requires.

In short:

- Ethics is the scientific study of the good life and the end of the human person.

- Morality is the rational quality of our concrete, freely chosen actions.

- Virtue concerns the internal habits that give us the power to act rightly.

- Prudence (the first of the so-called "cardinal virtues") is the practical skill (the "art") of applying ethics to daily life.

Re: Ethics Is the Skill That Matters Most Now

#38
post #36

This piece fails to understand that, in general, ethics depends on what side you are on. In hindsight, the winner's notion of right and wrong usually dominates. If ethics mattered, the colonists wouldn't have taken America or slaves. If pre-existing laws mattered, America would have lost the revolutionary war (America legally belonged to the king). If ethics mattered, anyone who made money in cigarettes would be in p…

...do....do you think that's a gotcha? Yes , if we had considered ethics in the past, we wouldn't have committed bloody genocide on the Native Americans. We would probably have tried to open up mutually beneficial trade with them. (Sadly, we probably would still have caused the deaths of millions of them simply due to pathogens we didn't know we were carrying when we met them.) Do you think that would have made thing…

I don't think the parent is advocating adhering to their values, but instead just talking about the relativism of ethics and morality.

Society broadly cannot function without a shared set of morals (e.g. stealing sows discord which leads to anarchy, so we outlaw stealing). However, it can get quite complex and so there are infinitely many shades of grays. The base principal would still stand and you do your best to adhere to it in order to have a stable society.

Re: Ethics Is the Skill That Matters Most Now

#39

[flagged]

Machiavellian ethics is also ethics. Ethics has very little to do with how to be good in some public opinion sense. The core question of ethics is what is the appropriate action in a given circumstance. It's an open question that has a lot of different answers. The opposite of ethics arguably isn't evil, but moral incontinence.

> Ethics has very little to do with how to be good in some public opinion sense

I would say that it probably does, but it's common for that to change with the passage of time. There are a lot of things that were done in the past that are horrific by today's standards but at the time were uncontroversial or accepted.

Re: Ethics Is the Skill That Matters Most Now

#40

This piece fails to understand that, in general, ethics depends on what side you are on. In hindsight, the winner's notion of right and wrong usually dominates. If ethics mattered, the colonists wouldn't have taken America or slaves. If pre-existing laws mattered, America would have lost the revolutionary war (America legally belonged to the king). If ethics mattered, anyone who made money in cigarettes would be in p…

People like you are the definition of insufferable. I guarantee you that in 1866 you wouldnt be as righteous as you think that you are.
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