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Intel Starts Shipping High-NA EUV Silicon

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Re: Intel Starts Shipping High-NA EUV Silicon

#61

Post by saberience »

llm_nerd wrote: post #47
petcat wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A great achievement of European science and technology It's an amazing piece of technology but this is... wildly wrong. ASML is a multi-national company that licenses IP largely from USA and Japan, but also Taiwan and Germany. The actual EUV light source is developed and produced in California by Cymer, which ASML acquired in 2013. But ASML was only permitted to acquire the company under a strict technology sharing…

> The actual EUV light source is developed and produced in California by Cymer, which ASML acquired in 2013. Cymer was one of multiple vendors (Gigaphoton, XTREME) providing this sort of light source, and ASML acquired it because it couldn't achieve what they wanted (they needed 100+W and Cymer could only achieve 15W). ASML needed to control and fund the company, and add engineering talent, to achieve what they actua…

Bingo!

Yes the OP is completely biased.

Re: Intel Starts Shipping High-NA EUV Silicon

#62

Post by llm_nerd »

bijowo1676 wrote: post #55
llm_nerd wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The actual EUV light source is developed and produced in California by Cymer, which ASML acquired in 2013. Cymer was one of multiple vendors (Gigaphoton, XTREME) providing this sort of light source, and ASML acquired it because it couldn't achieve what they wanted (they needed 100+W and Cymer could only achieve 15W). ASML needed to control and fund the company, and add engineering talent, to achieve what they actua…

isnt DUV and EUV technologies discovered and developed by US national labs (LLNL, LBNL, Sandia) in cooperation with EUV Consortsium funded by US Chipmakers (Intel, AMD, Motorola) and licenced to Cymer?

EUV was "invented" (demonstrated) in Japan first, though those US labs did a lot of work on the overall lithography system and reflective optics to put it into practice. The US DOE along with the manufacturers made a consortium (EUV LLC consortium) to commercialize/scale that Japanese technology because they could obviously see the promise, and Cymer is a member, as was ASML already via SVG.

Simultaneously Japan created its own initiative (EUVA), and Gigaphoton didn't rely upon the US initiative at all. And again in an alternate universe -- one where Japan isn't protectionist and Cymer wasn't out of financial runway and desperate -- we'd be talking about how ASML is really Japanese tech, etc.

Re: Intel Starts Shipping High-NA EUV Silicon

#63

Post by vlovich123 »

Lucasoato wrote: post #31
petcat wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A great achievement of European science and technology It's an amazing piece of technology but this is... wildly wrong. ASML is a multi-national company that licenses IP largely from USA and Japan, but also Taiwan and Germany. The actual EUV light source is developed and produced in California by Cymer, which ASML acquired in 2013. But ASML was only permitted to acquire the company under a strict technology sharing…

> There is a reason why ASML's next-generation research photolithography machine is currently being installed and developed in upstate New York, and not somewhere in the Netherlands. The same reason that Cymer is still in San Diego instead of being relocated to Europe. Why is the Netherlands government even allowing this?

Because ASML acquired the US company that created this tech and the agreement for allowing Netherlands to do so was that the tech and know how remain in the US.

Re: Intel Starts Shipping High-NA EUV Silicon

#64

Post by zmb_ »

spwa4 wrote: post #11
rando1234 wrote: post #9

Amazing looking machine! $380 million a pop. Must surely be one of the most sophisticated machines humanity has ever built? A great achievement of European science and technology (ducks).

That's what makes this hard to interpret. The whole strategy of intel is that they have their own version of this machine, part of their "18A" design. The only reason they need the ASML machine is because of the "optics" (between quotes because at the frequencies they work at no optics work - only (bad) mirrors do. However you need make the mirrors accurate enough - we're talking far more accurate than the chips, as…

Intel does not have their own version of this machine. This ASML machine is a component in a very large system of machines from many manufacturers that runs wafers automatically from machine to machine until a month later a chip comes out the other end. That system is “18A”. Intel designs, builds and operates that system. Intel does not make the machines, they buy them and figure out how to configure and operate them as a part of the system.

Re: Intel Starts Shipping High-NA EUV Silicon

#65

Post by actuallyship »

petcat wrote: post #30
rando1234 wrote: post #9

Amazing looking machine! $380 million a pop. Must surely be one of the most sophisticated machines humanity has ever built? A great achievement of European science and technology (ducks).

> A great achievement of European science and technology It's an amazing piece of technology but this is... wildly wrong. ASML is a multi-national company that licenses IP largely from USA and Japan, but also Taiwan and Germany. The actual EUV light source is developed and produced in California by Cymer, which ASML acquired in 2013. But ASML was only permitted to acquire the company under a strict technology sharing…

> There is a reason why ASML's next-generation research photolithography machine is currently being installed and developed in upstate New York, and not somewhere in the Netherlands.

This is a wildly ignorant comment. The R&D lab in NY State if anything is an effort to copy IMEC, the world's leading research organization when it comes to semiconductor R&D. They essentially set and define the roadmap for node advancements and then the industry follows by actually implementing their innovations at scale in their fabs. I guess they are technically not in the Netherlands, being located about 50 miles south of the Dutch border in Belgium. And they have in fact have an EXE system of their own, and have had access to ASML's high-na tools since before they were even commercially available

Re: Intel Starts Shipping High-NA EUV Silicon

#66

Post by tonyhart7 »

saberience wrote: post #60
petcat wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the secret magic of ASML and the Netherlands is just stealing US ingenuity is hilarious stuff. I never said anything about ASML stealing technology or ingenuity. The point is that EUV photolithography is an international effort. The machines don't exist at all without about 6 different countries contributing technology and expertise. ASML has certainly proven itself to be a very capable integrator of many internati…

Most of those technologies being European, including the most difficult to make components in the system. Why isn't there an American company doing this? Why isn't an American company making the lasers, mirrors, metrology, vacuum handling tech, etc?

they are licensed to European company yes

reason why US didn't produce most of these component because US gov didn't continue investment so privately owned enterprise take over from there namely ASML

that also reason why US can restrict EUV sales to china

Re: Intel Starts Shipping High-NA EUV Silicon

#67

Post by tjwebbnorfolk »

petcat wrote: post #30
rando1234 wrote: post #9

Amazing looking machine! $380 million a pop. Must surely be one of the most sophisticated machines humanity has ever built? A great achievement of European science and technology (ducks).

> A great achievement of European science and technology It's an amazing piece of technology but this is... wildly wrong. ASML is a multi-national company that licenses IP largely from USA and Japan, but also Taiwan and Germany. The actual EUV light source is developed and produced in California by Cymer, which ASML acquired in 2013. But ASML was only permitted to acquire the company under a strict technology sharing…

ASML is the only real tech company in the EU. Just let them have this one :)

Re: Intel Starts Shipping High-NA EUV Silicon

#68

Post by [deleted] »

gigatexal wrote: post #37
Tepix wrote: post #26

I believe Intel has a winner with the upcoming Crescent Island GPUs with up to 480GB of LPDDR5 memory. A lot of SMEs will need local AI with large open weights models (i.e. >1.5TB of VRAM), but they don't need a watercooled 8x Nvidia GB300 box. Besides, it's difficult to deploy and very expensive. Crescent island is air cooled and likely fast enough for a group of users running something like GLM 5.2 or Kimi K3.

I thought Nvidia after they invested in Intel killed Intel’s GPU efforts as it could be a threat to Nvidia’s GPUs

[deleted]

Re: Intel Starts Shipping High-NA EUV Silicon

#69

Post by dismalaf »

gigatexal wrote: post #37
Tepix wrote: post #26

I believe Intel has a winner with the upcoming Crescent Island GPUs with up to 480GB of LPDDR5 memory. A lot of SMEs will need local AI with large open weights models (i.e. >1.5TB of VRAM), but they don't need a watercooled 8x Nvidia GB300 box. Besides, it's difficult to deploy and very expensive. Crescent island is air cooled and likely fast enough for a group of users running something like GLM 5.2 or Kimi K3.

I thought Nvidia after they invested in Intel killed Intel’s GPU efforts as it could be a threat to Nvidia’s GPUs

A 4% stake doesn't even make Nvidia one of the top 3 holders of Intel stock... They'd be crucified for changing strategy for a 4% stake.

Also Nvidia arguably needs Intel more than vice versa, Intel now has SOTA fabs on the newest EUV technology, TSMC is at max capacity and they need to fight Apple and others for allocation...

Re: Intel Starts Shipping High-NA EUV Silicon

#70

Post by throwway120385 »

minraws wrote: post #40
gigatexal wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought Nvidia after they invested in Intel killed Intel’s GPU efforts as it could be a threat to Nvidia’s GPUs

To Nvidia the biggest threat is a capex cut from big tech not another company in the same domain, maybe some Chinese companies but people aren't going to be moving off of Nvidia for large deployments in the short term even if some TPU/Tranium etc is used it's not close to Nvidia. I have no explanation other than people, researchers are comfortable with it and don't want to switch.

Nvidia's software support remains "best in class" so they've become the default for a lot of this stuff. To overcome that I think you'd have to get a lot of hobbyists and by extension interested young people using your hardware instead of Nvidia. So you'd have to have good software support, decent hardware, and low hardware cost. People started with Nvidia because most machines had an Nvidia card in them, and Nvidia's software support was carried-over momentum from how they've supported their GPUs with PC gaming. I've tried AMD, for example, and the compatibility matrices and bugs and just general lacking software support for ML on their hardware makes it a total non-starter. It may be a lot better with current-generation stuff but it's going to take a lot for me to trust AMD for ML.
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