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Human mathematicians are being outcounterexampled

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Re: Human mathematicians are being outcounterexampled

#251
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was once in a presentation for a math PhD thesis. During the thesis, the evaluator of the thesis noticed a flaw in their proof. The student understood and then asked “What now?” The evaluator prof simply shrugged.

A recording of a car crash: discovering on live radio/podcast that the central tenet of your book is wrong, and amateurishly so. Naomi Wolf 'death recorded' on BBC[1], skip to 5:51. After this the book was pulped and she had some sort of psychotic break during COVID and allied with ultra-right and COVID denialist loonies. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-48639663

I just listened to it. I think she handled it remarkably well.

Re: Human mathematicians are being outcounterexampled

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more nuanced because many things are never really found false, or can't realistically be falsified. Planck was implicitly referencing the whole controversy over quantum mechanics, and how exactly to interpret it. None other than Einstein refused, all the way to his death, to accept a probabilistic interpretation in spite of all evidence pointing in that direction. He simply believed on a fundamental level that t…

> None other than Einstein refused, all the way to his death, to accept a probabilistic interpretation in spite of all evidence pointing in that direction. [...] Of course there even remains the possibility that at some point in the future he may even be proven correct To the extent that decoherence is the currently favored interpretation of quantum mechanics, that's basically now. In that picture, god does not play…

We are all Wigner's friend. That rock over there, those specks of dust here, the wings of all the butterflies, the moons of Titan, and SN 1987A. Everything is just Wigner's friend.

Re: Human mathematicians are being outcounterexampled

#253
post #118
post #15

When I was in grad school, I had the opportunity to take a course from my adviser in which he discussed his current research and some open questions. It was a relatively accessible subject area and the questions were sometimes easy enough that we could meaningfully contribute. On one particular Friday afternoon, he stated a conjecture that he hoped was true, and invited us to try to help him prove or disprove it. It…

This is probably part of why machines are doing so well at counterexamples. They have no aesthetic commitment to the conjecture and no embarrassment about producing something ugly

I don’t think that’s true. Lots of mathematicians excel at (and revel in) finding weird counterexamples and love the strangeness of it all. John H Conway being my favourite- Look up the Conway knot[1] or the Conway base 13 function[2] for famous examples.

Ugliness is in the eye of the beholder. Lots of counterexamples are very beautiful. For example, the Dirichlet function (f(x) = 1 if x is rational, 0 otherwise) is a source of very beautiful counterexamples. Eg it is discontinuous everywhere but f restricted to only rational numbers is continuous on all rationals and likewise f restricted to irrationals is continuous on the set of irrationals (R-Q).

[1] The Conway knot has 11 crossings yet shares the same Alexander polynomial as the “unknot” which has no crossings at all. It took 50 years to decide the question of whether it has a basic property known as “sliceness” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway_knot

[2] Conway’s base 13 function Was invented as a counterexample to the converse of the intermediate value theorem. That is, it satisfies the intermediate value property while being everywhere discontinuous (which breaks my brain completely) https://digitalresearch.bsu.edu/mathexchange/wp-content/uplo...

Re: Human mathematicians are being outcounterexampled

#254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A recording of a car crash: discovering on live radio/podcast that the central tenet of your book is wrong, and amateurishly so. Naomi Wolf 'death recorded' on BBC[1], skip to 5:51. After this the book was pulped and she had some sort of psychotic break during COVID and allied with ultra-right and COVID denialist loonies. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-48639663

I just listened to it. I think she handled it remarkably well.

She had poise in the moment.

Re: Human mathematicians are being outcounterexampled

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A recording of a car crash: discovering on live radio/podcast that the central tenet of your book is wrong, and amateurishly so. Naomi Wolf 'death recorded' on BBC[1], skip to 5:51. After this the book was pulped and she had some sort of psychotic break during COVID and allied with ultra-right and COVID denialist loonies. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-48639663

It doesn't seem too egregious an error to assume "death recorded" means they were executed, rather than the opposite where death was recorded as the verdict but not actually executed. Not checking newspaper reports of the period is lazy though and exactly the kind of thing I'd expect a journalist to do and therefore be the one to discover the flaw.

If you're not a historian it wouldn't be an egregious error.

Re: Human mathematicians are being outcounterexampled

#256
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the video available not through a proprietary player? > After this the book was pulped and she had some sort of psychotic break during COVID and allied with ultra-right and COVID denialist loonies. That's quite an extreme shift considering she had previously been a leading figure in third-wave feminism and an OWS activist.

Why? She went from crazy (that you sympathize with) to crazy (that you don't sympathize with). She was always crazy.

I think the crazy magnitude increased massively. If you subscribe to the horseshoe model, the change in bearing wasn't that large.

Re: Human mathematicians are being outcounterexampled

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Proof fix-ups are quite common, but if it was not possible, then no, not for that topic.

I guess there's no tradition for publishing "negative results" in mathematics? By that I mean not proof of something negative, but rather, "we tried this thing for ages and couldn't get it to work, but we couldn't prove that it could never work either". Probably there are understandable reasons for that... But I think "negative science" is really important, and soft results like "we tried that for a long time and it…

"Negative results" in the sense of replication failures and trial pre-registration are incredibly important. Lean is in some senses a mathematics response to the maths replication problem -- fields are so specialised, and proof checking so onerous, that many errors will go uncorrected.

Arguably mathematics should have pre-registration, so you can see who has tried what before, rather than just by knowing everyone in your field. As LLMs progress, we might get pre-registration of LLM-aided research. "We plan to spend $10K on Fable tokens to look at conjecture X is algebraic co-homology."

Re: Human mathematicians are being outcounterexampled

#258
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the nature of mathematics is an interesting question without one clean answer. To present a radically different view of mathematics: It's a game of string transformations, where the goal is to produce specific strings given a set of rules. The (syntactically valid) strings would correspond to statements, a producible string a theorem, and the production the proof.

This is a description of one portion of math... one that's very easy to get tunnel vision towards when undertaking a very formal undergraduate mathematical education. And that's especially true if it was alongside a computer science education, which is precisely the branch of math concerned with formal systems being used in calculation. I've done both of those things. I know what you get taught. But I've kept my math…

> The integers are not a subset of the rationals. They are entirely different constructions, but there is an isomorphism between integers and a subset of the rationals that preserves the integers' ring structure within that subset of the rationals and a few other aesthetic concerns.

This actually strikes me as a very formal perspective.

Considering it from an informal perspective, it's a bit more fuzzy isn't it. As you say there are many isomorphic things, and when we say The Integers it's not actually clear which one of them we mean. Maybe we mean one of them today and another tomorrow. Often times it doesn't matter, and so we don't clarify the question.

Like you could imagine defining the BootstrapNaturals then the BootstrapIntegers then the BootstrapRationals then use them to define the Reals. And then say that the Naturals, Integers and Rationals are defined as subsets of the Reals. This would be one way to put the common view of the Naturals as being a subset of the Reals on a solid formal foundation. It's rarely done ig because it's seen as obviously unproblematic to be a bit handwavy.

Another criticism of the common construction of numbers we could pose, inspired by object oriented programming, is that they fail at "information hiding". In programming an object should ideally not expose its internals. But in mathematics we may define 0 as say the empty set, making set operations on numbers syntactically valid which is kinda strange.

But yeah I think everyone has a sort of implicit understanding that 0 isn't actually the empty set. That it's merely a sort of hmm... thought experiment? That considering it 0 is a limited time offer, for the duration of the definition phase?

Maybe we come back to the isomorphism after all. "The natural numbers are something isomorphic to this set stuff I will now do"

Re: Human mathematicians are being outcounterexampled

#259
post #35

If the poster's (is it Kevin Buzzard?) suggestion works out and AI finds a counterexample to the Hodge conjecture, that would be a really big deal. It's one of the Millenium problems, for example. One thing that he mentions that already quite surprising is that AI was able to autoformalize the Golod-Shaferevich theorem and proof.

I think he was being provocative and maybe a bit tongue-in-cheek when he said that. A candidate object alone doesn't resolve the Hodge Conjecture. Any apparent counterexample would have to prove that no algebraic cycle exists, no invariant subspace exists, or that every element of an infinite ideal is nilpotent. Much harder, but not impossible.

Indeed I was being slightly tongue-in-cheek -- but if you ask geometers whether they believe the Hodge conjecture then you certainly don't always get an unqualified "yes"! This is in contrast to e.g. asking number theorists whether they believe Birch--Swinnerton-Dyer, where they are almost always very confident.

Re: Human mathematicians are being outcounterexampled

#260
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We were studying geometry - my adviser was the great Branko Grünbaum: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branko_Gr%C3%BCnbaum The conjecture had to do with whether one convex polygon could be continuously deformed into another while remaining convex, under certain conditions and constraints. The answer turns out to be no, but surprise and disappointment are understandable reactions to that outcome. It was indeed much more…

How interesting I was just reading yesterday his paper "An enduring error" about how we have been miscounting the Archimedean solids for two thousand years. But also, for this conjecture to be wrong is quite surprising to me. Intuitively I would think any convex polygon to be topologically equivalent to a circle, and any convex n-gon should be deformable into its regular version, then back to the other one…

He was an incredibly great man, and it remains a privilege to have learned from him. While I left mathematics for engineering, his audacious asking of the right questions around the philosophical foundations of an endeavor remains a large influence on me and has become a hallmark of my engineering work. It makes me smile that you are familiar with him as well. :)

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Here's the full puzzle, as best I remember it:

Suppose you have two convex polygons with the following very specific relationship: one has been created from the other by making one side stretchy, moving an adjacent side on a hinge, and keeping the remaining sides fixed. For example, imagine a square with a top side made of rubber, and a rigid right side hinged at the lower right corner. You can make a series of convex polygons in a continuous fashion by rotating that right side on its hinge.

The question is, if you have two convex polygons that differ only by this one stretchy side and this adjacent hinged side, can you guarantee that you can always smoothly deform the one into the other by this hinging method while keeping the whole thing convex?

That is to say, if you are deforming one polygon into another by this hinge and rubber band method, if your starting polygon and ending polygon are both convex, are all the middle ploygons guaranteed to be?

The answer is intuitively obviously yes, but in point of fact, it is no.

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To bring this back to the original story, the question was a small step in a larger constructive proof he was working on. The overall result was already known - in fact, we had just discussed it in class - but the proof had this distressingly jerky, discrete movement to it, and he was hoping to construct a more pleasing and smooth algorithm as a more satisfying proof.

As for me, I would not have known how to begin to prove even the smaller question... but I sure could doodle a counterexample. ;) I therefore looked for a one with all the gusto of a young grad student hoping against all odds to do something helpful. You may look with all the confidence of knowing there is something to find, which is also a tremendous help.

I only know his side of the story because he started Monday's class with this line: "I spent the entire weekend trying to prove the result, without success, and it was a good thing too, as there was a counterexample in my box this morning." He did seem genuinely frustrated, but I also wouldn't have put it past him to have exaggerated that part for the laugh.

Anyway. Asking an AI to find counterexamples under such circumstances seems to me similarly reasonable to asking grad students. In my engineering work, I find there is a balance between using the AI to improve and augment your work (especially to call on the diverse perspectives in its training set), and using the AI to avoid your work. I do think the best experience and results are found in that balance. I would expect the same to be true in mathematics.

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