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Judge approves $1.5B Anthropic settlement for pirated books used to train Claude

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Re: Judge approves $1.5B Anthropic settlement for pirated books used to train Claude

#311
post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At least not as far as the courts are concerned. Alsup ruled [0] that feeding a book into an LLM is transformative and counts as fair use. Especially when they purchased a physical copy of the book, scanned it, and destroyed the original. > But if I'm reading the ruling correctly, Anthropic might have been fine even with feeding pirated books into their LLM (as long as they eventually deleted them afterwards) The w…

> And since they literally destroyed the books (not just delete files, which would be copied), that made it transformative. You have to be careful, just because the judge points a factor out as notable, doesn't mean that factor was required. The destruction of source books makes Anthropic's fair use argument [2] especially air tight, but it would be a mistake to assume that act was required, or is what made it transf…

My understanding comes from here, seems pretty clear to me but won't claim to be a lawyer of course:

> Ultimately, Judge William Alsup ruled that this destructive scanning operation qualified as fair use—but only because Anthropic had legally purchased the books first, destroyed each print copy after scanning, and kept the digital files internally rather than distributing them. The judge compared the process to “conserv[ing] space” through format conversion and found it transformative. Had Anthropic stuck to this approach from the beginning, it might have achieved the first legally sanctioned case of AI fair use. Instead, the company’s earlier piracy undermined its position.

https://arstechnica.com/ai/2025/06/anthropic-destroyed-milli...

Based on that I get the impression it's quite literally the destruction part that makes it transformative, without it, it wouldn't have been tranformative at all.

Re: Judge approves $1.5B Anthropic settlement for pirated books used to train Claude

#312
post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You indeed need to pay someone if you take their copyrighted materials and regurgitate it. Ask DJ's and producers how they need to include royalties for samples used in their tracks.

There’s a difference between an abstract idea and the concrete thing. Regurgitating an idea is different than repeating the text verbatim. Ideas are protected by patents, not copyright.

So now that we have a magical paraphrasing machine, we can just run any copyrighted work through it to remove the copyright? Cool, I get a GPL version of Microsoft Office.

Re: Judge approves $1.5B Anthropic settlement for pirated books used to train Claude

#313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a difference between an abstract idea and the concrete thing. Regurgitating an idea is different than repeating the text verbatim. Ideas are protected by patents, not copyright.

So now that we have a magical paraphrasing machine, we can just run any copyrighted work through it to remove the copyright? Cool, I get a GPL version of Microsoft Office.

If you just use the abstract idea, you could have done the same thing yourself all the time already.

Re: Judge approves $1.5B Anthropic settlement for pirated books used to train Claude

#314

Judge Alsup issued the original order that determined they were liable for piracy but that training LLMs on books was fair use. It's worth reading if you're interested in the topic. https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/69058235/231/bartz-v-an...

So, continuing to profit--forever--from someone's else work, at scale, without their prior consent, is fair use? It's funny that crimes can be settled in cash. IOW, everything has a price; and the price is always right. Settlement ought to be the euphemism for blood money. In addition to the settlement, what I'd consider fair is to have these companies pay royalties in perpetuity. Of course, that's not tractable.

once you read the book, and learn from it and use the knowledge in your livelihood - you have to perpetually pay the author? Doesn't sound right.

Re: Judge approves $1.5B Anthropic settlement for pirated books used to train Claude

#315
post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is legal to train LLMs on books but illegal to train on output of LLMs. Perfect - an absolute steal for 1.5B.

> but illegal to train on output of LLMs. Since when?

They're probably confused with anthropic seething about "distillation attacks" coming from "fraud accounts". But that is not the law, that is just Anthropic being upset.

Re: Judge approves $1.5B Anthropic settlement for pirated books used to train Claude

#316

I do recall that a "famous redditor" was driven to suicide for making works available and he wasn't even making money for it.

He wasn’t just some famous redditor. Aaron Swartz helped create Reddit and invented RSS. If I put my conspiracy theory hat one and I always get piled on for this theory in other online communities but I think it could be possible. The theory is I think Aaron found some very dark stuff while exploring the MIT private networks, things that he was not supposed to see and could be very damaging to a lot people if they we…

Aaron Swartz founded Reddit in the same way that Elon Musk founded Tesla, but without the money.

Re: Judge approves $1.5B Anthropic settlement for pirated books used to train Claude

#317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, continuing to profit--forever--from someone's else work, at scale, without their prior consent, is fair use? It's funny that crimes can be settled in cash. IOW, everything has a price; and the price is always right. Settlement ought to be the euphemism for blood money. In addition to the settlement, what I'd consider fair is to have these companies pay royalties in perpetuity. Of course, that's not tractable.

once you read the book, and learn from it and use the knowledge in your livelihood - you have to perpetually pay the author? Doesn't sound right.

Why is everyone talking about human analogies when LLMs are not humans?

Re: Judge approves $1.5B Anthropic settlement for pirated books used to train Claude

#318

A one time payment like 1.5B doesn’t do anything. There needs to be a royalty payment based on if the AI regurgitates existing ideas. That is probably the correct way to legislate this. If anything a human does can instantly be copied by an LLM, and then sent to all its subscribers, things need to change

> There needs to be a royalty payment based on if the AI regurgitates existing ideas. So, by that logic, you need to be paying every time you regurgitate any of my ideas. Or anyone else's. Copyright now protects abstractions and vibes. Substantial similarity test be damned. Nobody can write stories about wizard schools, the idea is taken.

Well I think that is the greater question.

Is AI just an algorithm. Is human creativity just an algorithm?

Who, if anyone should own the copyright if you prompt AI to write a book?

I'm thinking more from a moral and philosophical pov, the copyright regime is broken anyway

Re: Judge approves $1.5B Anthropic settlement for pirated books used to train Claude

#319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, continuing to profit--forever--from someone's else work, at scale, without their prior consent, is fair use? It's funny that crimes can be settled in cash. IOW, everything has a price; and the price is always right. Settlement ought to be the euphemism for blood money. In addition to the settlement, what I'd consider fair is to have these companies pay royalties in perpetuity. Of course, that's not tractable.

I dunno, ever used a thing you learned from a textbook in your job? Did you have to continue paying for the copy of that knowledge speed on your brain? No, because that's not what copyright is about. Learning from and building on previous work is civilization. Copyright maximalism is a plague.

Am I an LLM?

Re: Judge approves $1.5B Anthropic settlement for pirated books used to train Claude

#320

I do recall that a "famous redditor" was driven to suicide for making works available and he wasn't even making money for it.

He wasn’t just some famous redditor. Aaron Swartz helped create Reddit and invented RSS. If I put my conspiracy theory hat one and I always get piled on for this theory in other online communities but I think it could be possible. The theory is I think Aaron found some very dark stuff while exploring the MIT private networks, things that he was not supposed to see and could be very damaging to a lot people if they we…

I'm not from the USA so my views are obviously biased by this. I very much doubt Epstein committed suicide, and it's been wild to watch you guys deal with it, not releasing the files, holding nobody accountable and so on. That being said, I also don't think there needs to be a big dark secret to explain why someone caught in the USA justice system would commit suicide.

It's crazy that you could face 35 years in jail for trying to free knowledge in a harmless manner. The longest anyone has been imprisoned for in my country in modern times is 26 years, 11 months and 6 days. We have a few people posed to break that record. Peter Lundin has been in prison for 25ish years, and him and Peter Madsen (the discount elon musk turned murderer who killed some poor journalist in is selfmade submarine) are contenders to people who will probably go beyond 35 years.

Not that our system is perfect. I think we're far too lenient on some crimes, but risking 35 years in jail for downloading and sharing academic knowledge... That's objectively evil.

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