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AI makes programming differently difficult

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Re: AI makes programming differently difficult

#131

Post by sph »

echelon wrote: post #85
nasretdinov wrote: post #74

Definitely not my experience. No matter the model, if I'm working on something important (and there is little reason on working on something not important) I do care about correctness and understandability. While LLMs are great for throwaway one-time code (although that's also debatable), they cannot compete with code written by a seasoned professional. No matter how many times I've tried delegating writing code to L…

You're moving too slow. Over the last four days I've few shotted a 1:1 clone (and improvement) of Fal, OpenRouter, and Replicate in Rust. It's going to be open source. I've lined up $300k of monthly commitments for it that land at launch. Might apply to YC with it. Moving "organic" is too slow for the world today.

Would you believe me if I told you you’re only the second biggest AI maximalist on this forum? Despite the extraordinary claims I keep reading from you. Gotta work harder at it mate.

Re: AI makes programming differently difficult

#132

Post by tossandthrow »

cadamsdotcom wrote: post #106
tossandthrow wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Historically, we make systems to make these decisions - build a method to sort potatoes. Or build a method that can build a method to sort potatoes. Ai, as a cognitive technology, has the potential to climb that hierarchy. Yes, current software developers need to make more decisions now. But that is just until the methodologies settle. Then it is over.

If you think the hierarchy has a highest level, or that abstraction can only go "this far and no further".. I don't know what to tell you.

You don't appear to have actually read the comment?

Re: AI makes programming differently difficult

#133

Post by gatio »

reinitctxoffset wrote: post #103
jorgeleo wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup!. Over 30 years experience here. Landed on the same place with the added feeling of "We were always intended to develop the judgement of what makes sense and maintainable, where is the surprise here?" People want the "Fluent Text Generator" to think for them because its marketing calls it AI. At the end is just a tensor collection, probabilistically backtracked adjusted, text generator. It does produces fluency i…

I think it's easier to make your point without the baggage of the mechanism assertions. The code is just wrong a lot. By denying the possibility of emergent phenomemona or model interiority you just hand the hypsters an easy point to score. The code is just wrong, all the time. You're right about the part that matters and that we can measure.

Except... it does produce solid code in many scenarios. A lot of the time we are just applying the same patterns and tools to a specific problem. If you understand the problem, agents can and are producing quality code.

I do a lot with orchestrating cloud infra, provisioning and deprovisioning workflows, lifecycle management, updating CMDBs, access management, deployment automation, auditing configurations, and some APIs in front. The code is boring, mostly glue. The agents nail it quite consistently, especially with some guidance.

I do know what I want out of it, and that is deterministic quality code to solve specific business problems, so that we don't have people (or their agents) running amok.

Re: AI makes programming differently difficult

#134

Post by cadamsdotcom »

tossandthrow wrote: post #132
cadamsdotcom wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think the hierarchy has a highest level, or that abstraction can only go "this far and no further".. I don't know what to tell you.

You don't appear to have actually read the comment?

I did a poor job explaining.

See, all the potato-sorting systems and the ones that drive those and so on, those are a hierarchy without end. There'll always be some other efficiency gain. And some other machine. And the whole stack will always need a human to direct and design the hierarchy, design monitoring, remediate failures, and invent new more efficient ways.

AI is not embodied and doesn't have its own drive so it can't subsume human interest and desires - humans will always direct the machines. It will never "be over".

The humans who know this will always always always be at the top, directing the machines & designing the new ones. Yes, some people won't and they will end up in the hierarchy instead of on top. But that doesn't mean it is over. It's just over for them.

You aren't responsible for how others adapt to change. Just.. work out how to not lose. Don't defeat yourself before even trying. I can't tell you how. No one can, it's your journey. But by being here on Hacker News you're already better off than most.

Re: AI makes programming differently difficult

#135

Post by zombot »

agumonkey wrote: post #50
bnfcl wrote: post #7

Quote of the main point in the article: In other words, the hard part moves from recall (“How do I write this?”) to judgment (“Does this actually make sense?”) This is very true. But to evaluate if it makes sense, you first need experience writing the code. I am glad I learned software development over 15 years ago, and not today. AI is a super power, but without the experience to guide it, it can go horribly wrong r…

Yes a LLM is mostly an information memory de vice, but as a worker you still have to vet it. I believe the human constraint made us find ways to layer and modularize systems so it is easier to check. Now the LLM produces a lot of code and abstraction have to be enforced. Something is missing.. (resonates with the latest Pocoo blog)

What is "de vice" supposed to mean?

Re: AI makes programming differently difficult

#136

Post by CuriouslyC »

runarberg wrote: post #30
asdfman123 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, that's definitely true... for now. The thing that concerns me, however, is that just a year ago it was only useful for doing things like reminding me how to read in a file. Now it's at the level of a competent junior, who can almost do the whole task from start to finish but needs a little supervision. All the AI companies are retaining the messages we're sending to their agents to train the next models. I would…

People were saying the exact same thing exactly a year ago. “Last years models were no good, but this year we can do anything; so what about next years models?” the people said in July of 2025. Well... Now we have next years models, and people are still saying: “Last years models were no good, but this year we can do anything; so what about next years models?” And I am pretty sure in July 2027 (if this whole thing ha…

We had O1 and Gemini 2.5 Pro last year, which were both very good models, just not for long horizon agentic tasks. They were surprisingly capable, just not without a lot of hand holding.

Current models are very good for long horizon agentic tasks, but they lack taste and higher level organizational principles. They can get a tremendous amount done with limited hand holding, but they still tend to build messy slop unsupervised/without intervention.

By this time next year hand writing code will be dead outside the rarest domains, and agents will be able to build larger projects coherently, and in two years human software taste and architectural guidance will be basically redundant. I predicted the complete automation (3+ 9s) of software engineering in 3 years back in mid 2025, if anything we're slightly ahead of schedule.

Re: AI makes programming differently difficult

#137

Post by CuriouslyC »

runarberg wrote: post #102
webdood90 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You must really have your head in the sand if you truly believe AI will not soon be very close to, if not better than, humans at writing code.

That is simply not technologically possible. You are speaking in science fiction here. You cannot train a neural network on existing things and then by some magic have the model be better then the training data. The laws of statistics prohibit it.

For code you can do better than humans on a lot of metrics pretty easily bro. This is because you can RL on objective verified outputs. Kind of like how RL was used to make agents wipe the floor with humans in Dota2, chess and go.

RLing taste and discernment are harder, but don't doubt that researchers can get a model that produces a more performant solution than you, while using less code, and being more secure/robust/etc, in a fraction of the time. Your moat for the moment is alignment with stakeholders and high level taste, enjoy it while you can.

Re: AI makes programming differently difficult

#138

Post by tossandthrow »

cadamsdotcom wrote: post #134
tossandthrow wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't appear to have actually read the comment?

I did a poor job explaining. See, all the potato-sorting systems and the ones that drive those and so on, those are a hierarchy without end. There'll always be some other efficiency gain. And some other machine. And the whole stack will always need a human to direct and design the hierarchy, design monitoring, remediate failures, and invent new more efficient ways. AI is not embodied and doesn't have its own drive so…

Unless you are only trying to satisfy your own desires, you are likely not winning over the Ai, also not in judgement.

A characterization of a business is to satisfy as much desire as cheaply as possible.

Ai,and in the not so distant future embodied Ai, will likely outdo humans if left unchecked.

Even in areas such as providing companionship, sex, etc.

Re: AI makes programming differently difficult

#139

Post by fatata123 »

zombot wrote: post #135
agumonkey wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes a LLM is mostly an information memory de vice, but as a worker you still have to vet it. I believe the human constraint made us find ways to layer and modularize systems so it is easier to check. Now the LLM produces a lot of code and abstraction have to be enforced. Something is missing.. (resonates with the latest Pocoo blog)

What is "de vice" supposed to mean?

[dead]

Re: AI makes programming differently difficult

#140

Post by CyberDildonics »

echelon wrote: post #127
CyberDildonics wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything already exists Then why are you trying to make something?

Why make new music or new movies? The same things have been said by every previous generation. Just listen to your parents' music, right? Use the same technology, the same fashion, everything. Why? Because it's incremental improvement. Because it's making a dent in the world. Because creation feels better than consumption. Because we're maybe 10-20 iterations away (250 years, tops?) from brain uploads and everlasting…

Because we're maybe 10-20 iterations away (250 years, tops?) from brain uploads and everlasting life harvesting the energy of distant stars. Or at least our descendants are.

You can predict 250 years in the future now and when 'brain uploads' will happen and when everlasting life will happen and when the harvesting of distant stars will happen?

That's impressive because you've made predictions a year into the future and they never came true.

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