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A digestion of the Jacobian conjecture counterexample

terrytao.wordpress.com

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Re: A digestion of the Jacobian conjecture counterexample

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm upvoting this because it's interesting. I don't have to fully understand something to find it interesting.

In what way is it interesting compared to the myriad of other posts on this topic that has content you can understand?

I read thru it and most of it is accessible to an undergraduate. As long as you remember what Sym{1,2,3} are (clearly explained in the text), and how a resultant works (many undergraduate textbooks will show you), how SL2 works (reasonably common undergraduate topic), and can figure out the bit about the dual space being the same as those differential operators, everything else is just basic (high school) algebra.

Re: A digestion of the Jacobian conjecture counterexample

#52
post #37
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt Anthropic will share the details (or at least the full true details). The mystery of the magic makes for much better marketing. I think a reasonable assumption is that there is an interaction between an LLM, a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_algebra_system tool, a human prompting with deep math expertise, and lots of compute that explains hitting upon the remarkable cancellation.

> a human prompting with deep math expertise The original tweet implied that the whole thing was done while the author was watching the World Cup final. I know it’s tempting to hope that a human did the “real” work here, but if some special insight was put into prompting, the author kept it to himself, and there is no reason why they would hide this since it would elevate their own status.

I don't think it is as much about 'real' work or a special insight as it is being willing to push back multiple times, or simply asking in a way that steers it towards actually 'giving enough of a fuck' to even bother. We tend to be ~blind to how differently we would ask about something we know compared to a novice, this is what makes some better teachers than others.

Have encountered a similar flavor in programming, wrote it off until I saw someone point out how garbage in garbage out they tend to be. If you hand any frontier model dogshit and ask it to do something simply, the result is often not great.

But! If you spend 20 minutes having it comb through and clean up with something like jscpd, then tell it to step through with a debugger, gather profiling traces, etc... very likely it will yield meaningful improvements or catch some corner cases. If it doesn't, anyone with experience is going to tell it to try something else, or that it isn't good enough, as opposed to accepting the first result.

You can recreate this by disabling web search and asking a model about the conjecture and then giving it his post. I've tried a few and their initial responses range from "this is a meme I'm not even going to verify it" to vaguely insulting chains of thought, concerns about the need to be careful because you're clearly nuts or stupid, then falling back on remedial explanations. After a few nudges they all eventually work through it, accept it, and apologize.

IMO its reasonable to imagine a situation where someone is having a beer or two watching The Big Game, asking an LLM to do something stupid for fun and landing somewhere like this on the magic jump to conclusions mat.

Re: A digestion of the Jacobian conjecture counterexample

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It will make mistakes if you tell it to, so I assume it will make no mistakes if you tell it not to.

When this news came out I amused myself by asking Claude to prove that 0.999... != 1. First it did so for the hyperreals. To do it for the reals I had to tell it it was allowed to make mistakes, although it didn't end up interestingly wrong - just very fuzzy and vague.

Actually it's not true for the hyperreals either, though this is a common misconception. It's extremely easy for me to believe that an llm would produce a "proof" and that people would fall for it.

Re: A digestion of the Jacobian conjecture counterexample

#54

Okay. So what does this overturn, intuitively? Can we no longer assume that functions are differentiable at certain points, or something?

For the Jacobian determinant to be constant is a massive coincidence, in general it is some complicated and messy polynomial. The conjecture was that this coincidence couldn't happen, except for simple special cases.

So Alpoge and Fable found an example of a function that was believed to be too strange to exist.

Re: A digestion of the Jacobian conjecture counterexample

#55
post #34

Can we audit the CoT and work the AI did to generate such a remarkable cancellation?

I doubt Anthropic will share the details (or at least the full true details). The mystery of the magic makes for much better marketing. I think a reasonable assumption is that there is an interaction between an LLM, a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_algebra_system tool, a human prompting with deep math expertise, and lots of compute that explains hitting upon the remarkable cancellation.

I have no idea what actually happened behind the scenes, but the human prompter, Levent Alpöge, indeed has deep math expertise. Princeton PhD, Harvard postdoc, and some excellent research (prior to this) to his name.

https://alpo.ge/

Re: A digestion of the Jacobian conjecture counterexample

#57
post #28

reading through this I eventually realized a situation similar to my experience of it is what my dog sees if I attempt to explain Python programming to him.

The difference is your dog will never understand the Python code but you could probably understand this post in a matter of days or weeks if you really wanted to. Can we all please stop acting like this Terry guy is so special?

Re: A digestion of the Jacobian conjecture counterexample

#58
post #28

reading through this I eventually realized a situation similar to my experience of it is what my dog sees if I attempt to explain Python programming to him.

Some people downvoting you, but I think it is a valuable illustration of IQ gap. And chances are that humanity at large will be soon trying to follow ai inventions and discoveries not unlike your dog follows your Python code.

I really don’t think IQ has much to do with it. Understanding this stuff is like a skill you practice. Yes, granted, if you had a low IQ your chances of ever understanding it goes down, if you have a high IQ maybe you can gain the prerequisite understanding faster.

A lot of maths is about both being able to wrap your head around hard problems and gaining the prerequisite knowledge to make it easier to do so.

Re: A digestion of the Jacobian conjecture counterexample

#59

> While this is an extremely quick verification, the construction presented in this fashion appears like a massive miracle. The polynomial {F} has degree seven, so a priori the Jacobian {\mathrm{det} DF} ought to be a polynomial in three variables of degree as large as {3 \times 6 = 18}, so the fact that all non-constant coefficients of this polynomial vanish looks like a massive cancellation involving {\binom{18+3}{…

I was reading another source that claimed this example was inspired by an existing (rational polynomial) example from the literature (created in 1999 by a Russian mathematician Vitushkin).

> The seed is almost certainly Vitushkin's old rational "counterexample."

From https://claude.ai/share/22abed98-d9af-43c5-9881-b19e009a07b0

This is not quite lore laundering, but it seems to be close.

Re: A digestion of the Jacobian conjecture counterexample

#60

[flagged]

I am sure he did the minimum effort needed to communicate what he wanted to communicate.

If you are offended by his math gifs and feel that the widely regarded best mathematician of our time should use embedded LaTex or something better, why not offer to upgrade his blog?

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