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AI makes programming differently difficult

cacm.acm.org

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Re: AI makes programming differently difficult

#61

Post by gjvc »

leke wrote: post #53
bnfcl wrote: post #7

Quote of the main point in the article: In other words, the hard part moves from recall (“How do I write this?”) to judgment (“Does this actually make sense?”) This is very true. But to evaluate if it makes sense, you first need experience writing the code. I am glad I learned software development over 15 years ago, and not today. AI is a super power, but without the experience to guide it, it can go horribly wrong r…

Yep, I feel fortunate that programmers that made it well before AI are going to be very sort after in a world where software development is going to explode and be in very high demand.

"sought"

Re: AI makes programming differently difficult

#62

Post by mondrian »

NuclearPM wrote: post #55
leke wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, I feel fortunate that programmers that made it well before AI are going to be very sort after in a world where software development is going to explode and be in very high demand.

Sort?

Sought

Re: AI makes programming differently difficult

#63

Post by contextfree »

asveikau wrote: post #35
guywithahat wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder about this. One would think new programmers, like old, will learn through experience to care most about the things that matter, and ignore things that don’t. In 10 years my pre-AI experience may condition me to waste time thinking about struct packing, while younger developers simply won’t know or care

> thinking about struct packing, while younger developers simply won’t know or care That particular ship sailed more than 15 years ago. Back then if you asked people trained on high level GC-based languages about low level details or memory allocation, they wouldn't know.

But I feel like over the last ~10 years there's been a trend back towards learning more about them (e.g., with Rust and new C# features, or with C++ Win32 programming becoming a cool hipster thing somehow)? Or maybe that's just my own personal bubble.

Re: AI makes programming differently difficult

#64

Post by FinnLobsien »

snerbles wrote: post #32
FinnLobsien wrote: post #3

It’s the same with writing: AI writing is coherent on the surface, but is impossible to edit because it’s built on no real insight. Now the sharpening of a coherent point, challenging one’s assumptions, and editorial decisions of what (not) to include are super important because they’re no longer a byproduct of the writing process.

Human insight can emerge from attacking the semblance of sense in the LLM's output. Much of the cognitive work in writing emerges in the labor of writing prose and challenging assumptions against the model you build in your head as you go. I've found this process is inverted when working with an LLM: it in effect emits a provisional structure first, and I discover what I actually think by finding where its output is…

Sure this is true. And if an AI draft helps in creating quality writing, great!

I was thinking more when it comes to stuff other people send me (like a freelance writer) and “editing” is basically writing the first draft because no cognitive effort has yet been spent on the piece

Re: AI makes programming differently difficult

#65

Post by 1saadcodes »

I agree with this, but I'd add that good judgment comes from experience. Before you can evaluate whether AI-generated code makes sense, you need to have written enough code yourself to recognize the trade-offs and failure modes. AI is an incredible productivity multiplier, but it can also make it much easier to move quickly in the wrong direction without even knowing that you are moving in the wrong direction

Re: AI makes programming differently difficult

#66

Post by foo12bar »

This article will apply for about 3 months until AI advances again and the assumptions made are no longer true.

You can't take a rapidly developing field and pretend progress is going to freeze at its current development level so you can decide how to handle it.

It's a coping mechanism to deal with rapid change by pretending change is going to stoo right here right now and you can get a handle on it.

Re: AI makes programming differently difficult

#67

Post by devin »

contextfree wrote: post #63
asveikau wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> thinking about struct packing, while younger developers simply won’t know or care That particular ship sailed more than 15 years ago. Back then if you asked people trained on high level GC-based languages about low level details or memory allocation, they wouldn't know.

But I feel like over the last ~10 years there's been a trend back towards learning more about them (e.g., with Rust and new C# features, or with C++ Win32 programming becoming a cool hipster thing somehow)? Or maybe that's just my own personal bubble.

If you have to care about this stuff, then you do. I think it’s that simple.

Re: AI makes programming differently difficult

#68

Post by skydhash »

articulatepang wrote: post #33
kloop wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does make it correct in the reality sense If someone says something happens and the code says something else, the code wins.

That's technically correct but consider the following: You're implementing quicksort. The actual algorithm is a conceptual piece of math. You write the code. But sometimes the code produces output that isn't sorted. The code "wins" in that whatever the code says is what actually happens. But the code is wrong. It must be edited to match the algorithm. The _algorithm_ is the thing that is proven correct; the _algorith…

Let’s say you were trying to say “I like bread” in French (which is “j’aime le pain”) but what come out is “j’aime le vin” (I like wine). It is the wrong statement, but it will produce an effect as the other party may bring you wine (which you may hate). The actual issue here isn’t that you didn’t speak French, but that you didn’t express what you wanted well.

So code is just a notation. But one that is executable. In your example, the code is working, it’s just not what you intended. The issue is not the code, the issue is that you don’t know code well enough to “speak” your algorithm.

And that is the main issue with a lot of LLM users. They are translating specs (which they do understand) to code (that they do not understand) and then relying on superficial outputs to see if they got it right. While also telling fluent speakers that they should follow the same workflow. At least with human languages, the other party may detect discrepancy and the fact that you’re not a native speaker. But a computer will execute things blindly.

Re: AI makes programming differently difficult

#69

Post by snerbles »

FinnLobsien wrote: post #64
snerbles wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Human insight can emerge from attacking the semblance of sense in the LLM's output. Much of the cognitive work in writing emerges in the labor of writing prose and challenging assumptions against the model you build in your head as you go. I've found this process is inverted when working with an LLM: it in effect emits a provisional structure first, and I discover what I actually think by finding where its output is…

Sure this is true. And if an AI draft helps in creating quality writing, great! I was thinking more when it comes to stuff other people send me (like a freelance writer) and “editing” is basically writing the first draft because no cognitive effort has yet been spent on the piece

And the mechanical correctness is the hazard. To anyone used to essay assignments since time immemorial it feels intuitively done.

Re: AI makes programming differently difficult

#70

Post by Cerium »

leke wrote: post #24
dsmurrell wrote: post #6

It's somehow more tiring, reading complex plans in response to your guidance, and then making decision after decision. Reminds me of this Alan Watts bit... A farmer who ordered a farmhand quickly discovered he was an extraordinarily efficient worker. The first day, he put him on sawing logs, and the farmhand sawed more logs than anybody else, ever. It was fantastic — but the wood-cutting work was all done in one day.…

If the AI is asking you questions and requiring you to make decision after decision, then perhaps it's a spec issue. I know I've written a good spec if the AI does not ask any questions and doesn't get anything wrong after implementing the user story.

What is a spec but a collection of decisions?
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