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AI makes programming differently difficult

cacm.acm.org

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Re: AI makes programming differently difficult

#51

Post by Terr_ »

twa927 wrote: post #15

> Code becomes only one representation of thought among many overlapping ones. This is wrong, code is the concrete "truth" being executed, the rest (plans, prompts, agent instructions) are just temporary artifacts used to generate the code. What's left is the code alone. LLMs don't have any semantics, they can't execute anything with 100% certainty. So far programming languages are the only langugues that can do that…

> What's left is the code alone.

The necessary work is more than just the deliverable. Even a simple patch implies an indefinite number of other approaches not-taken, and sometimes not-taken for good reasons.

Sometimes we explicitly document those, sometimes we trust that a human expert decided against them. Those other aspects of work still exist, even if they are getting skipped/mismanaged with LLMs.

Re: AI makes programming differently difficult

#52

Post by chungusamongus »

twa927 wrote: post #15

> Code becomes only one representation of thought among many overlapping ones. This is wrong, code is the concrete "truth" being executed, the rest (plans, prompts, agent instructions) are just temporary artifacts used to generate the code. What's left is the code alone. LLMs don't have any semantics, they can't execute anything with 100% certainty. So far programming languages are the only langugues that can do that…

Nope. Code is a representation. Even low level code. The fact that you do not understand this is concerning.

Re: AI makes programming differently difficult

#53

Post by leke »

bnfcl wrote: post #7

Quote of the main point in the article: In other words, the hard part moves from recall (“How do I write this?”) to judgment (“Does this actually make sense?”) This is very true. But to evaluate if it makes sense, you first need experience writing the code. I am glad I learned software development over 15 years ago, and not today. AI is a super power, but without the experience to guide it, it can go horribly wrong r…

Yep, I feel fortunate that programmers that made it well before AI are going to be very sort after in a world where software development is going to explode and be in very high demand.

Re: AI makes programming differently difficult

#54

Post by lelanthran »

furyofantares wrote: post #9

It's true that there are new skills to acquire (and that those with talents for the old skills may be less talented with the new skills). It's absolutely not true that it "just" moved the difficulty around. If that were true then I'd be just as well off continuing to use my decades of programming expertise just as I always have; but the reality is I can get more done, and get better work done (depending on level of v…

> It's true that there are new skills to acquire

What new skills?

Re: AI makes programming differently difficult

#55

Post by NuclearPM »

leke wrote: post #53
bnfcl wrote: post #7

Quote of the main point in the article: In other words, the hard part moves from recall (“How do I write this?”) to judgment (“Does this actually make sense?”) This is very true. But to evaluate if it makes sense, you first need experience writing the code. I am glad I learned software development over 15 years ago, and not today. AI is a super power, but without the experience to guide it, it can go horribly wrong r…

Yep, I feel fortunate that programmers that made it well before AI are going to be very sort after in a world where software development is going to explode and be in very high demand.

Sort?

Re: AI makes programming differently difficult

#56

Post by chasd00 »

dsmurrell wrote: post #6

It's somehow more tiring, reading complex plans in response to your guidance, and then making decision after decision. Reminds me of this Alan Watts bit... A farmer who ordered a farmhand quickly discovered he was an extraordinarily efficient worker. The first day, he put him on sawing logs, and the farmhand sawed more logs than anybody else, ever. It was fantastic — but the wood-cutting work was all done in one day.…

> It's somehow more tiring, reading complex plans in response to your guidance, and then making decision after decision.

This is the world of a manager working with a development team hah. When writing the code yourself is it not the same? If you're writing the code by hand then you're still making the decisions and still having to plan and design. I mean someone/something has to...

Re: AI makes programming differently difficult

#57

Post by bnfcl »

LinuxAmbulance wrote: post #45
asdfman123 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, that's definitely true... for now. The thing that concerns me, however, is that just a year ago it was only useful for doing things like reminding me how to read in a file. Now it's at the level of a competent junior, who can almost do the whole task from start to finish but needs a little supervision. All the AI companies are retaining the messages we're sending to their agents to train the next models. I would…

> All the AI companies are retaining the messages we're sending to their agents to train the next models. I wouldn't be surprised if the agents will be able to do what I'm doing in a year or two. Some things are very easy to solve via code (see https://xkcd.com/1425/ ), and others are extremely difficult. For LLM based AI, it can be trained to write functionally correct code easily - there's tons of pre-existing code…

Exactly, tacit knowledge is not easily added as AI training data.

Re: AI makes programming differently difficult

#58

Post by MangoCoffee »

nphardon wrote: post #8

How many times can we have the same discussion.

Yeah, I believe I’ve seen this topic posted on HN many times now.

Code has always been cheap, even before AI/LLMs. It’s your ability to understand your client’s problem and come up with a good solution that’s what gets you paid.

Re: AI makes programming differently difficult

#59

Post by asdfman123 »

LinuxAmbulance wrote: post #45
asdfman123 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, that's definitely true... for now. The thing that concerns me, however, is that just a year ago it was only useful for doing things like reminding me how to read in a file. Now it's at the level of a competent junior, who can almost do the whole task from start to finish but needs a little supervision. All the AI companies are retaining the messages we're sending to their agents to train the next models. I would…

> All the AI companies are retaining the messages we're sending to their agents to train the next models. I wouldn't be surprised if the agents will be able to do what I'm doing in a year or two. Some things are very easy to solve via code (see https://xkcd.com/1425/ ), and others are extremely difficult. For LLM based AI, it can be trained to write functionally correct code easily - there's tons of pre-existing code…

> Some things are very easy to solve via code (see https://xkcd.com/1425/), and others are extremely difficult.

Note that comic is about a task that AI has already conclusively solved...

Re: AI makes programming differently difficult

#60

Post by FinnLobsien »

Havoc wrote: post #34
FinnLobsien wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the bigger issue in defining this is that “programming” is too big a task to say whether it got easier or harder. Some YAML formalities now take zero effort while architectural thinking became way more important and difficult.

>architectural thinking became way more important and difficult. Did it though? I think the architectural stuff was always there and was always hard. And still is. I don't buy that it got harder now that you've got a pretty smart AI you can bounce ideas off, ask to investigate stuff, maybe make a quick mockup trivial test of both options on an architectural choice you face, send off to do research etc. ...so in my mi…

Yes some parts of that are easier with AI, but I think comparatively to other activities, architecture is much harder.

And I also think what you describe is true in some contexts where you know exactly what you’re after.

You also don’t make architecture decisions in a vacuum, so the decision others make also affect you and you need to sell your decisions to others.

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