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Fertility is collapsing because motherhood is zero-status

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Re: Fertility is collapsing because motherhood is zero-status

#21

Post by throw310822 »

watwut wrote: post #20
throw310822 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, part of it is basic, rational pleasure seeking. Although you seem to make you case a bit too extremely, as having two or three children doesn't entirely destroy free time and social life, doesn't per se make a person boring nor makes her powerless in case of abusive relationships. It's obvious that having children is a commitment that has trade offs, but the point of the argument is that it seems to have no ups…

> Although you seem to make you case a bit too extremely, as having two or three children doesn't entirely destroy free time and social life I described what experience of having one or two children is. All those are real effects on women and if they trust you a little, they openly talk about them. > nor makes her powerless in case of abusive relationships. Specifically, yes, it makes you a lot more vulnerable. You a…

> All those are real effects on women and if they trust you a little, they openly talk about them.

I know plenty of mothers who have a better social life than mine. It's not like mothers are this rare and little known phenomenon. Of course everyone will happily talk about the upsides and downsides (and often more of the downsides) of their lives and choices, that's not the sign of some fundamental difficulty.

> I did not said THEY are bad.

Sorry, I didn't mean this. I mean that you don't seem to be able to mention anything desirable or even enviable in the condition of being a mother: only isolation, helplessness, toil and, as a positive quality, self-sacrifice. I'm not blaming mothers, I'm trying to make you aware that you haven't attributed anything desirable to motherhood, and this feels like a great illustration of the effect the original post is about. If the only things we think a woman achieved by becoming a mother are dependence, a boring life and social isolation, then it's not very surprising at all that fertility rate is plummeting.

Actually, the only reason you manage to come up with for a woman to have children is "fertility is going down"- which is an abstract, societal one. And who cares? Why would it be any individual's problem, why should a woman sacrifice herself because "fertility is going down"?

Re: Fertility is collapsing because motherhood is zero-status

#22

Post by throw310822 »

g8oz wrote: post #16

The author's proscriptions for the fertility crisis include - permitting child labor (as long as it's in a local business) - ending sex education - denying student loans to women - permitting hiring discrimination Not sure how well such measures would fly with the general public.

Yeah, good lord, I've read it now and it looks like a recipe to go back to the good old times of.. what, some batshit pre-modern religious society. Curious, because from the premise it sounds almost reasonable: if motherhood has become unsexy, make it cool again! Instead this goes the opposite way- let's make a society in which motherhood still sucks, but hey, you know no better.

On one hand, I think that "making motherhood sexy" could be a very reasonable path to pursue: by at the same time providing a framework of support for mothers to increase their quality of life, and deploying some long-term marketing/ educational/ cultural campaign to frame motherhood (and parenthood) as an experience that is enriching and fulfilling, a fundamental step in the development of a person.

But on the other hand, I frankly don't think we need that many human beings in the future. The fact that our fertility rate is below replacement is not going to be a problem for long.

Re: Fertility is collapsing because motherhood is zero-status

#23

Post by watwut »

throw310822 wrote: post #21
watwut wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Although you seem to make you case a bit too extremely, as having two or three children doesn't entirely destroy free time and social life I described what experience of having one or two children is. All those are real effects on women and if they trust you a little, they openly talk about them. > nor makes her powerless in case of abusive relationships. Specifically, yes, it makes you a lot more vulnerable. You a…

> All those are real effects on women and if they trust you a little, they openly talk about them. I know plenty of mothers who have a better social life than mine. It's not like mothers are this rare and little known phenomenon. Of course everyone will happily talk about the upsides and downsides (and often more of the downsides) of their lives and choices, that's not the sign of some fundamental difficulty. > I did…

Fertility is going down was my answer to your "why would anyone take such a burden" question. The answer is, people largely don't.

I described how experience of motherhood was and its real impact on people. I did experienced some of that, I heard real life women talk about these and I have seen sociological studies confirming the same. For example, being stay at home mom is one risk factor for alcoholism. Social isolation is super common.

I described it only because you kept trying to frame the above issues as "status seeking", being the coolest or in grand dreams I just cant relate to. But that is not what women decide on when they decide between having a child or having another child. These down to earth basic impacts are the reason to say "nope, not another one".

Re: Fertility is collapsing because motherhood is zero-status

#25

Post by jfengel »

throw310822 wrote: post #22
g8oz wrote: post #16

The author's proscriptions for the fertility crisis include - permitting child labor (as long as it's in a local business) - ending sex education - denying student loans to women - permitting hiring discrimination Not sure how well such measures would fly with the general public.

Yeah, good lord, I've read it now and it looks like a recipe to go back to the good old times of.. what, some batshit pre-modern religious society. Curious, because from the premise it sounds almost reasonable: if motherhood has become unsexy, make it cool again! Instead this goes the opposite way- let's make a society in which motherhood still sucks, but hey, you know no better. On one hand, I think that "making mot…

I believe your last paragraph hits the nail on the head. The author has the solutions they want (restricting women's rights). The "fertility crisis" is their justification for it.

If overpopulation had been the problem instead, he would almost certainly have the same prescription.

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