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Apple defeats liability for not scanning iCloud for CSAM

blog.ericgoldman.org

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Re: Apple defeats liability for not scanning iCloud for CSAM

#71

Post by goalieca »

djoldman wrote: post #51

I am not a lawyer. There is something ironic about US laws that attempt to prevent crime A by outlawing action B. For example: * A: physical sexual abuse of children. B: possession or distribution of CSAM * A: drug trafficking or tax evasion. B: structured cash withdrawals The irony is that the more B is prevented, the less A can be detected and the less B can be used as evidence of A. It's my understanding that conv…

Our society is pretty aligned that distribution is another kind of harm. Non-consented distribution of sexual images (eg: revenge porn) is also a crime. Children don’t need to be the ones to press charges in child porn unlike with adults. That’s a good thing.

Re: Apple defeats liability for not scanning iCloud for CSAM

#72

Post by pavon »

trollbridge wrote: post #48
avidiax wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is crazy people think apple isnt on the side of privacy. > It also ensured pressure from governments and plaintiffs, including CSAM victims, who preferred Apple’s more interventionist approaches, which Apple had voluntarily demonstrated it was willing to do. I feel that Apple open pandora's box with the client-side scanning. It proved that it was technically feasible, and was "privacy preserving". I use scare qu…

I thought the client side scanning was to protect children? If it suspects an image is bad, it blurs it and pops up a warning including a link to resources to go to for help. Very different than trying to narc out users to the authorities.

That is what they actually deployed. They were planning on performing client-side scanning of all images uploaded to iCloud for CSAM and reporting it to the authorities, but backpedaled after public push-back.

Re: Apple defeats liability for not scanning iCloud for CSAM

#73

Post by ux266478 »

djoldman wrote: post #51

I am not a lawyer. There is something ironic about US laws that attempt to prevent crime A by outlawing action B. For example: * A: physical sexual abuse of children. B: possession or distribution of CSAM * A: drug trafficking or tax evasion. B: structured cash withdrawals The irony is that the more B is prevented, the less A can be detected and the less B can be used as evidence of A. It's my understanding that conv…

> one can be convicted of CSAM-related crimes related to paintings/drawings/created_art of fictional people.

This isn't necessarily the case in the US, though I believe only for drawings. AI-generated CSAM probably wouldn't fly in a court of law.

Regardless, it's a naive conception of a system of law to think of it as a utilitarian system of restitution in contexts of "this individual harmed this individual". In fact, that would fall under the category of a "tort" rather than a "crime". The law is just as much about enforcing social mores and norms as it is about dealing with individuals harming each other. Hence why locales like Canada outlaw all forms CSAM, even fictional ones. The victim taken is to be society itself. The possession of this material, implicitly entailing enjoyment of it, is so gross a violation of society's norms and mores that it becomes elevated to a legal matter.

Re: Apple defeats liability for not scanning iCloud for CSAM

#74

Post by intrasight »

pixel_popping wrote: post #29
majorchord wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Children cannot legally consent to most things in most places, especially until near the end of their teen years.

They can't consent but it does make sense that it's true, I would genuinely bet that more nudes are being shared between 17-year olds than some freak, as this is common to the point where I feel a very large portion of all existing teens have done it.

In the near future, when a 17 year old asks her phone to take a nude selfie, the phone will say "no".

Re: Apple defeats liability for not scanning iCloud for CSAM

#75

Post by amelius »

amazingamazing wrote: post #4

It is crazy people think apple isnt on the side of privacy. Are they perfect? Not even close, but compared to the rest of big tech theyre simply on another level. Apple could easily not do this stuff and it may even be easier to not.

Apple may be on the side of privacy, but since they are competing everybody out of the market with their slick consumer products they actually form a threat to privacy since now the government has to only implement a backdoor at one vendor.

Re: Apple defeats liability for not scanning iCloud for CSAM

#76

Post by cortesoft »

Aurornis wrote: post #25
twuopf wrote: post #8

I know creating a throwaway to hide your name for an opinion is a bad manner, but this one is one I really don’t want linked back to me The VAST majority of “CSAM” is consensually created and exchanged by teens. Their future selves and their parents form this pressure group attacking everyone’s liberty and privacy to try to undo the downsides of choices they made themselves with full knowledge of what could happen. T…

The proposed CSAM scanning used perceptual hashing to try to identify CSAM material known to law enforcement. It was not a tool to identify private images as being underage. That’s an impossible task.

It's impossible to do with perfect accuracy, but that doesn't mean it isn't done.

Just ask the dad who was investigated for taking pictures of his toddler for the doctor: https://www.koffellaw.com/blog/google-ai-technology-flags-da...

Re: Apple defeats liability for not scanning iCloud for CSAM

#77

Post by ux266478 »

goalieca wrote: post #71
djoldman wrote: post #51

I am not a lawyer. There is something ironic about US laws that attempt to prevent crime A by outlawing action B. For example: * A: physical sexual abuse of children. B: possession or distribution of CSAM * A: drug trafficking or tax evasion. B: structured cash withdrawals The irony is that the more B is prevented, the less A can be detected and the less B can be used as evidence of A. It's my understanding that conv…

Our society is pretty aligned that distribution is another kind of harm. Non-consented distribution of sexual images (eg: revenge porn) is also a crime. Children don’t need to be the ones to press charges in child porn unlike with adults. That’s a good thing.

> Our society is pretty aligned that distribution is another kind of harm.

As well as possession. I don't actually know if those are different for CSAM, but I would assume so because they are for drugs.

Re: Apple defeats liability for not scanning iCloud for CSAM

#78

Post by timcambrant »

0cf8612b2e1e wrote: post #37
JSR_FDED wrote: post #7

The judge called the outcome disturbing, as it leaves victimized children as "collateral damage" of privacy protections. As sad as this is, end to end encryption means no CSAM scanning. As an alternative Apple previously tried to do scanning on the phones locally but caught hell for that too. This is one of those unfortunate tradeoffs but I see no alternative to privacy taking priority.

People can also distribute heinous things through snail mail, but we are not yet at the point where the government reads all letters looking for wrongthink. Just because we technically can make a privacy destroying drag net does not mean we should. Had phones existed 250 years ago, I have no doubt the founders would have thought it obvious that a cellphone’s contents were your personal papers which could not be freel…

But that's mostly because it's impractical. They do use dogs to sniff for drugs and explosives, so if CSAM smelled or was visible through X-ray then it would probably be a different story. And let's not forget snail mail is by far a more uncommon way to spread that material than the Internet is. The Internet came into broad use just ~15 years after commercial CSAM was openly being sold by mail order in Europe.

Personally, I am on the side of privacy, just to be clear.

Re: Apple defeats liability for not scanning iCloud for CSAM

#79

Post by pushcx »

djoldman wrote: post #51

I am not a lawyer. There is something ironic about US laws that attempt to prevent crime A by outlawing action B. For example: * A: physical sexual abuse of children. B: possession or distribution of CSAM * A: drug trafficking or tax evasion. B: structured cash withdrawals The irony is that the more B is prevented, the less A can be detected and the less B can be used as evidence of A. It's my understanding that conv…

No. In short, in US law, CSAM is a visual depiction of a real-world act of child sexual abuse. Visual depictions like you're describing are covered under a different law, and I'm not aware of it having a short name. There's a good expert thread on this with links to the relevant federal laws here: https://bsky.app/profile/rahaeli.bsky.social/post/3lbt7zkvlq...

Re: Apple defeats liability for not scanning iCloud for CSAM

#80

Post by carljungslabtek »

joshred wrote: post #62
djoldman wrote: post #51

I am not a lawyer. There is something ironic about US laws that attempt to prevent crime A by outlawing action B. For example: * A: physical sexual abuse of children. B: possession or distribution of CSAM * A: drug trafficking or tax evasion. B: structured cash withdrawals The irony is that the more B is prevented, the less A can be detected and the less B can be used as evidence of A. It's my understanding that conv…

I don't think these are the same. Outlawing CSAM gives law enforcement the ability to shutdown markets and prevent commercial distribution of CSAM. Sexually abusing children is heinous, but sexually abusing children for financial gain is even worse.

There are even people involved in commercial distribution of it that claim to not even be interested in children, just in profit or even allegedly “for a sense of community” (someone actually said this after getting caught, he was in his 20s but I can’t remember his name — he might have been one of the red room guys).

On top of that, while there are different types of child abusers, the worst ones almost invariantly collect CSAM to the point of hoarding. So it really isn’t that bad of a proxy.

The root comment is implying that legalizing or decriminalizing csam would somehow help with prosecution of child abuse? I’m kind of speechless. Csam IS child abuse. The fact that there are consumers encourages producers to, well, produce!

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