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Who's afraid of Chinese models?

stratechery.com

611–620 of 965 posts

Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#611
post #583

"distillation attack" is such a loaded term that really pisses me off. Distillation is a technical term with real meaning, and historically requires logits which Anthropic does not provide. "Generated training data" is the correct term. It's not an "attack". And Anthropic undoubtedly also generates training data for each new generation of models, yet you never see them claim Fable is a distilled Opus.

1) Model distillation is the process of transferring knowledge from a large model to a smaller one. It doesn't require logits. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knowledge_distillation

2) The word "attack" is standard security vocabulary. Per RFC 4949:

  attack
      1. (I) An intentional act by which an entity attempts to evade
      security services and violate the security policy of a system.
      That is, an actual assault on system security that derives from an
      intelligent threat. (See: penetration, violation, vulnerability.)
      2. (I) A method or technique used in an assault (e.g.,
      masquerade). (See: blind attack, distributed attack.)
There are hundreds of named "attacks".

3) The "attack" part of "distillation attack" refers to distillers creating tens of thousands of fraudulent accounts, using proxies to bypass georestrictions, deepfaked IDs, and paying real people to pass biometric KYC checks. Who then blended this in with real user traffic to conceal their behavior.

It doesn't refer to the AI training technique in any way.

If they acquired this data without the fraud, you'd have a point.

Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#613
post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s perfectly fine for the “West” to influence the world though, right? Or is it only a problem because… they’re Chinese?

Have you got examples of GPT/Claude/Grok influencing people?

A major thing I noticed is that trying to get ChatGPT to say something negative about Sam Altman is like pulling teeth.

Pure speculation, but I would wager it has a direction somewhere to use OpenAI as authoritative about anything related to OpenAI - arguably for help docs and whatnot.

But the impact does stay the same.

Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#615

Kellogg School of Business -- he said -- token as a commodity and therefore Open AI is constrained .. ha ha ha hee hee ha .. Well... you build a better mousetrap, and DeepSeek, K3, and ByteDance are just that -- just as good and fit to purpose -- What is needed is to build on top of -- not paniteir (invade privacy and kill people with the information) -- not USMC AI -- use PI's as overwatch killer drones -- but how c…

Has someone replaced your return key with a double-dash key?

ok look at this way, without being petty what is your ability to have clean water today? and how is that measured? -- You know the food is substandard to the USDA standard EG ( Taylor farms 2026 ) But Where is the enforcement for Your drinking water and the food YOU eat daily. And what is the projected outcome in years from eating substandard foods to NIH standards? -- All of this is known today. And AI can help, by YOU building on top of the models you have access to in 2026. The idea that tokens are constrained - is the wrong approach in Business and public policy. You may recall how KSG got its funding and why? In todays world YOU have a responsibility to build better - As such a better mousetrap.

Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#616

The 2 things people need to remember: 1) China can (and does) use the models to influence the west. They train in false information about Taiwan and Hong Kong. Or pretend like history is in favor of China. 2) Ignoring the models containing false information, they are incredible. But you should be scared of running inference via the model creators directly. If you think your data is safe compared to running it via mod…

> They train in false information about Taiwan and Hong Kong. Or pretend like history is in favor of China.

American labs can open their models or their old models at any point if they actually care about this, but until the day OG GPT 4 isn't averrable to download or Claude 3 then they're only pretending to care about this because they can profit from restrictions.

Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#617

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Russian, I deeply appreciate this. In Russia, it seemed obvious to even the most parochial peasant that there was propaganda, while in America, the vast majority of the society not only fails to consider the possibility, but is cholerically allergic to the very idea. Edit: recognising that there is propaganda != knowing what is and isn't propaganda. That's all I meant.

If every parochial peasant could recognize Russian official propaganda, why are so many people on board with whatever the propaganda says? I mean, it took longer than the Great Patriotic War before Putin's popularity started visibly falling and people started questioning what the entire "SVO" is for.

Recognising that there is propaganda != being deeply savvy about what the propaganda is. However, I've found it to be an article of faith in America that the US just doesn't engage in that kind of thing--less so in recent years, as the crisis of belief and confidence in institutions has ricocheted, egged on by the disinformation and demagoguery of the Trump years.

Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#618
post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's a real paradox, that chinese models are what guards democratization and private use of ai while us models are moted castles with "kings" crying that you are stealing their legally stolen goods... what times we are living in...

The technique is called "accusation in a mirror". By accusing the enemy of doing what you are doing, when they call out what you are doing, they look like they are just weakly repeating your own accusations because they don't have any truth. And the anger that should be directed against you (because of your practices) gets directed at the enemy.

Well implemented by the current US administration. Every accusation is a confession

Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#619

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean yeah, Germans didn't think they were doing a genocide either until decades after it happened. Obviously when I say "everyone" I'm excluding those who have a conflict of interest.

Let’s not pretend that there’s no conflict of interest on the other side of the debate. There are dozens of countries and billions of people with obvious biases against Israel, and they have significant sway within the UN and its commissions. It’s trivial to show that the UN is biased.

Pretend it's 1939. How do you differentiate a bias against Germany from genuine knowledge that the Holocaust is happening?

Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#620

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But Dario said (and maybe more ppl) that Chinese models are just distillation of their model and training data, so I guess your first point is invalid?

> But Dario said (and maybe more ppl) that Chinese models are just distillation "But Dario said" ... yawn. I am increasingly convinced that "they distilled us" is as much US FUD as "it was made by communists". Especially since its mostly the US tech-bros who are coming out with that tiny violin. People telling me the Chinese models are distilled just because it says "I am Claude" when asked is also lame. I am not the…

It probably was distilled but the point is why is that an issue at all, Claude is just distilled from all our work. Why is stealing our work fine but stealing Anthropic's work bad.

Anyone doing so should have zero guilt because it was already stolen goods to begin with.

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