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Who's afraid of Chinese models?

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Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#511

Post by sajithdilshan »

inglor_cz wrote: post #495
sajithdilshan wrote: post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But hasn’t it been the same with US since the WWII? US has influenced the world through various ways sometimes even weaponising human rights to spread American superiority and its narrative?

While true, you neglect the fact that US corporations have some autonomy from the government. I doubt that any of the current American AI corporations get regular dossiers of desirable responses to sensitive political topics from Washington and implement them. That would be a reason for a major lawsuit and a major scandal. In China, the image of the country and the preferred narrative is under much tighter control of…

> you neglect the fact that US corporations have some autonomy from the government

I'm not sure if this is correct. It seems like every big US corporation is changing their policy based on the views of the administration in place. As an example during Biden's time the DEI was in full motion in every corporation and in current administration it's the other way around. Also I remember as soon as Biden won the election twitter and meta suspended the profile of Trump. So I hardly think that there is much room for autonomy. Also the latest export bans on Antropic and OpenAI models kind of make your argument weak, of course the company can sue the givernment, but the national security comes above all.

> BTW What you mean by "weaponizing human rights", exactly?

US has been using the violations of human rights to impose sanctions or to especially get countries in line which are not supporting the US agenda when it comes to global politics. However, they were more than happy turn a blind eye if the respective country that violates human rights (most middle eastern countries) if they are allies of US doctrine.

Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#512

Post by kingleopold »

kiicia wrote: post #492
WinstonSmith84 wrote: post #480

I'm rather scared of US models - if Anthropic was the only AI provider in the world, it's easy to see that common people would have no access at all. Thankfully there is OpenAI which compete 1:1 with Anthropic (at a slightly lower cost) but most importantly the Chinese models keep Anthropic, but also OpenAI in checks. And I'm saying this as someone working for American companies.

it's a real paradox, that chinese models are what guards democratization and private use of ai while us models are moted castles with "kings" crying that you are stealing their legally stolen goods... what times we are living in...

ethics and other details are for humans. AI companies just proving it, even highest IQ teams are against ethics because they want more, even several millions is not enough for them.

Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#513

Post by _aavaa_ »

magarnicle wrote: post #234
_aavaa_ wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fair use requires more than you accessing the material legally. In the US one of the factors is “ the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work”. If anthropic Hoovers up the world’s books and trains on them, and then spits them out verbatim on command, then it will clearly impact the value of the work; nobody will buy the original, they’ll just ask Claude. Others also argue that…

> If anthropic Hoovers up the world’s books and trains on them, and then spits them out verbatim on command, then it will clearly impact the value of the work; nobody will buy the original, they’ll just ask Claude. Ah, right. So if we want models to be capable we need them to be trained on as much as possible, yet we also want to stop what you described. So what can be done?

I mean the choice is: 1) we pass laws that explicitly say training models like this is legal (the original quote, 2) say it’s illegal and requires licenses for the data and ability to opt out, 3) we ignore it and continue because the companies are too big to jail.

Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#515

Post by inigyou »

kiicia wrote: post #492
WinstonSmith84 wrote: post #480

I'm rather scared of US models - if Anthropic was the only AI provider in the world, it's easy to see that common people would have no access at all. Thankfully there is OpenAI which compete 1:1 with Anthropic (at a slightly lower cost) but most importantly the Chinese models keep Anthropic, but also OpenAI in checks. And I'm saying this as someone working for American companies.

it's a real paradox, that chinese models are what guards democratization and private use of ai while us models are moted castles with "kings" crying that you are stealing their legally stolen goods... what times we are living in...

The technique is called "accusation in a mirror". By accusing the enemy of doing what you are doing, when they call out what you are doing, they look like they are just weakly repeating your own accusations because they don't have any truth. And the anger that should be directed against you (because of your practices) gets directed at the enemy.

Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#516

Post by inigyou »

simianparrot wrote: post #460
w4lker wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://thereallo.dev/blog/claude-code-prompt-steganography Why should I trust a US company more than a Chinese one?

[flagged]

Been there. Great place. High standard of living, everyone is very productive. Still a dictatorship, and you can't speak ill of the government, but a successful one.

Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#517

Post by inigyou »

sajithdilshan wrote: post #511
inglor_cz wrote: post #495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While true, you neglect the fact that US corporations have some autonomy from the government. I doubt that any of the current American AI corporations get regular dossiers of desirable responses to sensitive political topics from Washington and implement them. That would be a reason for a major lawsuit and a major scandal. In China, the image of the country and the preferred narrative is under much tighter control of…

> you neglect the fact that US corporations have some autonomy from the government I'm not sure if this is correct. It seems like every big US corporation is changing their policy based on the views of the administration in place. As an example during Biden's time the DEI was in full motion in every corporation and in current administration it's the other way around. Also I remember as soon as Biden won the election…

A Russian and an American are sitting next to each other on a plane.

The American says "I'm impressed by the propaganda you have in Russia."

"Oh it's very good, but it's nothing compared to the propaganda you have in America." replies the Russian.

"Huh? We don't have propaganda in America." says the American.

"Exactly." says the Russian.

Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#518

Post by inigyou »

hetman wrote: post #319
riskd wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s perfectly fine for the “West” to influence the world though, right? Or is it only a problem because… they’re Chinese?

Why would it be a problem that they're Chinese? It's a problem because their country is ruled by an authoritarian regime. The West, by contrast, doesn't have a singular arbiter of truth, it has a plurality of perspectives (as much as certain interest groups would really rather that was not the case). It's not perfect, but those of us who have memories of living under authoritarian regimes can tell you there's no comp…

If being ruled by an authoritarian regime is the problem, then wouldn't both Chinese and American models be problematic?

European models too, if they had any.

Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#519

Post by traceroute66 »

throwaw12 wrote: post #486

Lets do "who's afraid of US models" version: * Me, as an individual, because I might not be able to pay price hikes, because my revenue (salary) is much lower than what they want and I can't support my expenses via huge bank loans. * Again, me as a new entrant to the industry, LLMs are basically pay-to-play games, again related to price hikes, new entrants might not be able to afford paying those prices 24/7 - which…

> Any non-US company, US can block the models which can disrupt the whole business.

And read your data, see CLOUD act, PATRIOT act etc. etc.

No longer a theoretical risk in today's US political environment.

Re: Who's afraid of Chinese models?

#520

Post by traceroute66 »

ballon_monkey wrote: post #233

The 2 things people need to remember: 1) China can (and does) use the models to influence the west. They train in false information about Taiwan and Hong Kong. Or pretend like history is in favor of China. 2) Ignoring the models containing false information, they are incredible. But you should be scared of running inference via the model creators directly. If you think your data is safe compared to running it via mod…

> China can (and does) use the models to influence the west. They train in false information about Taiwan and Hong Kong. Or pretend like history is in favor of China.

I am not Chinese and I'm not defending the Chinese, but I see this argument come up a lot.

In practical terms it is US-sponsored FUD.

Why ?

Because the hard reality is that what you say is simply not going to affect 99.9999999999% of users.

Is it realistically going to affect anyone using an LLM in coding ? No.

Is it realistically going to affect anyone using an LLM in $anything_else_not_politically_sensitive ? No.

Does anyone seriously use LLMs for researching politically sensitive matters ? No.

Just as there is plenty of information out there on the US's less than perfect history, there is also plenty of information out there on the various Chinese politically sensitive matters. You do not need a Chinese LLM to find out about it, all you need is a search engine.

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