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Human mathematicians are being outcounterexampled

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Re: Human mathematicians are being outcounterexampled

#91
post #65
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ChatGPT's idiomatic translation of the poem: Yu Xin’s was a life of utter desolation; in old age, his poems and rhapsodies stirred the riverlands.

Yu Xin's past was exquisitely tragic Ages passed; now his works betray magic

I think the feminine rhyme sounds unintentionally comic.

Re: Human mathematicians are being outcounterexampled

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like the worst "exam nightmare" scenario imaginable, but did the student get the PhD in the end?

Mistakes in proofs are relatively common, but such a mistake doesn't automatically mean that the proof is entirely wrong. Many times, the mistake is just in the exposition, and can be fixed easily. Other times, the mistake is fixable and the fix is apparent. Perhaps the author forget to treat a relatively trivial edge case. In the first two cases, the student would likely just pass with minor corrections to be submit…

A few months after Andrew Wiles presented the proof for Fermat's last theorem, some mistakes were found that subsequently took him over a year to patch over. Imagine being 12 months into trying to put the pieces back together, after all the years of work and announcing your finding publicly.

Re: Human mathematicians are being outcounterexampled

#93
post #15

When I was in grad school, I had the opportunity to take a course from my adviser in which he discussed his current research and some open questions. It was a relatively accessible subject area and the questions were sometimes easy enough that we could meaningfully contribute. On one particular Friday afternoon, he stated a conjecture that he hoped was true, and invited us to try to help him prove or disprove it. It…

> I learned on Monday that he had spent the entire weekend trying and failing to prove it. I, on the other hand, had put all my energy into finding a counterexample and had one within an hour. He spent an entire weekend before having the wisdom to pause, and let someone else contribute their time to finding a counter.

This was back when the internet was mostly chain emails and personal web pages, being unreachable once you went home for the weekend was perfectly normal and expected, and automatically thinking the worst of people was not a common form of public performance art. ;)

Re: Human mathematicians are being outcounterexampled

#94

How do mathematicians view counter examples? Is it like an unexpected result in the physical sciences: annoying in the moment but potentially stupendously important as it reveals some inaccuracy in the current models? Or is it more like a bug report in coding… probably just, another little annoying detail?

There are pedagogical books (CF. 'Counterexamples in Topology', 'Counterexamples in Analysis') that teach the nuances of subjects through counterexamples. They're popular as it's sometimes easier to learn details from a pathology or degenerate example than from just learning what is intended.

Re: Human mathematicians are being outcounterexampled

#95
post #15

When I was in grad school, I had the opportunity to take a course from my adviser in which he discussed his current research and some open questions. It was a relatively accessible subject area and the questions were sometimes easy enough that we could meaningfully contribute. On one particular Friday afternoon, he stated a conjecture that he hoped was true, and invited us to try to help him prove or disprove it. It…

> It was also the case that I had absolutely no command of the sort of machinery that one would use to prove such a thing, but I could certainly look for a counterexample. Hm, as a mathematician, my experience feels opposite. A proof would be an adaptation of a proof I know, some tweaking it here and there. A counterexample would require some deep understanding of the structure of the objects involved, which frequent…

We were studying geometry - my adviser was the great Branko Grünbaum: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branko_Gr%C3%BCnbaum

The conjecture had to do with whether one convex polygon could be continuously deformed into another while remaining convex, under certain conditions and constraints. The answer turns out to be no, but surprise and disappointment are understandable reactions to that outcome. It was indeed much more practical for a young grad student to look for a clever misbehaving polygon than to try to prove something about all of them at once.

Re: Human mathematicians are being outcounterexampled

#96

Human mathematicians have been being out-counterexampled for at least two decades. The main difference, as I understand, is that (A) we now have a lot more compute to throw at such things, and (B) it is currently trendy to do so. But the sizes of counterexample we're seeing are around about what I'd expect pre-generative-AI counterexample search systems to be able to find. It's not easy to find a counterexample to th…

> about what I'd expect pre-generative-AI counterexample search systems to be able to find.

The difference today (and the reason why everyone is excited about it) is that the same system that does advanced math can write poetry, play an above average game of chess, code frontend/backend stuff and do cybersec. These are not "expert systems", nor are they trained for each task individually. That's the catch.

> just indicated that humans had not spent enough time thinking about the problem

Heh, this is a weak excuse. We've seen variations on this theme every time something cool gets solved by the models.

Re: Human mathematicians are being outcounterexampled

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A recording of a car crash: discovering on live radio/podcast that the central tenet of your book is wrong, and amateurishly so. Naomi Wolf 'death recorded' on BBC[1], skip to 5:51. After this the book was pulped and she had some sort of psychotic break during COVID and allied with ultra-right and COVID denialist loonies. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-48639663

This is astonishing. How could a person go to the lengths of writing an entire book without ever looking up this sort of thing?

The term she mistook for meaning a death/execution had been recorded was "death recorded". So it's a mistake that could be made similarly to how one might confidently assume that a "public school" is a school which is a school that is either government funded or open to anybody in the local area.

More generally I think people are inappropriately confident in general. When you go through history just about every century prior people believed many things that the next century would come to see as plainly false. People in modern times seemed to have stopped believing this was true, yet it's likely that people during every given century also stopped believing such was true, because what you believe "now" is always assumed to be correct. Nobody wants to believe they hold false beliefs, even though there's a practically 100% certainty that all of us do, and in quite healthy quantities.

Re: Human mathematicians are being outcounterexampled

#98

Human mathematicians have been being out-counterexampled for at least two decades. The main difference, as I understand, is that (A) we now have a lot more compute to throw at such things, and (B) it is currently trendy to do so. But the sizes of counterexample we're seeing are around about what I'd expect pre-generative-AI counterexample search systems to be able to find. It's not easy to find a counterexample to th…

> about what I'd expect pre-generative-AI counterexample search systems to be able to find. The difference today (and the reason why everyone is excited about it) is that the same system that does advanced math can write poetry, play an above average game of chess, code frontend/backend stuff and do cybersec. These are not "expert systems", nor are they trained for each task individually. That's the catch. > just ind…

> nor are they trained for each task individually.

They are explicitly trained for each task individually.

Re: Human mathematicians are being outcounterexampled

#99
post #23

> The Jacobian Conjecture Interestingly, Yitang Zhang of the twin-prime-conjecture fame spent 7 years working on the Jacobian conjecture under the advisor Tzuong-Tsieng Moh at Purdue. A key step in his thesis used a corollary of Moh's. It turned out that the corollary was incorrect. As a result, Moh refused to write any recommendation letter for Zhang, and Zhang couldn't find any teaching or research job and ended up…

Inspiring? Because of the twin prime conjecture success following his time in the wilderness? I suppose so. I'm tired of tales like this in academics though. That's not a criticism of you for telling the tale, I'm just so tired of this kind of thing in academics in general. So, so, so much politics and public reputation management. Zhang should have never had to suffer like that. As my own research has drifted more i…

Planck's Principle: 'Science advances one funeral at a time.' [1]

In his exact words: "A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it... An important scientific innovation rarely makes its way by gradually winning over and converting its opponents: it rarely happens that Saul becomes Paul. What does happen is that its opponents gradually die out, and that the growing generation is familiarized with the ideas from the beginning: another instance of the fact that the future lies with the youth."

And he said that having lived, as a outsized figure, through the late 19th to mid 20th century of physics, which was the absolute golden age for such.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck's_principle

Re: Human mathematicians are being outcounterexampled

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A recording of a car crash: discovering on live radio/podcast that the central tenet of your book is wrong, and amateurishly so. Naomi Wolf 'death recorded' on BBC[1], skip to 5:51. After this the book was pulped and she had some sort of psychotic break during COVID and allied with ultra-right and COVID denialist loonies. [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-48639663

This is astonishing. How could a person go to the lengths of writing an entire book without ever looking up this sort of thing?

When I read your comment I completely give myself over to the understanding that you mean she wrote a whole and continuous book, without ever researching whether you meant a book about uncastrated male animals. Imagine my surprise when I go the radio to discuss your comment and a zoologist calls up to correct my understanding of a common English phrase.
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