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Hacker wipes Romania's land registry database

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Re: Hacker wipes Romania's land registry database

#341

Post by reaperducer »

halJordan wrote: post #269
SoftTalker wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah it's actually not that bad, because for example the BMV will likely upon request send you a duplicate driver's license to your address of record. Same for getting replacement credit cards. If you had utility services at that address in your name that's additional documentation. Also historical tax returns, bank accounts, etc.

"why's he asking for a new dl? " "Oh volcano exploded, his home is under 5 ft of ash." "Gotcha, mail him the copy"

Fun fact: If your house is under 5 ft of ash, it's not covered by volcano insurance. That only covers you if your home is destroyed by the actual eruption/explosion.

What you need is "pyroclastic event" insurance to cover you for ash and lahar.

/ It cost something like $15/year when I lived in Seattle.

// The macOS spell checker doesn't know "lahar."

Re: Hacker wipes Romania's land registry database

#342

Post by pseudohadamard »

franciscop wrote: post #139
skinfaxi wrote: post #5

> Since the hack, officials restored their website and posted a message announcing they are rebuilding the agency's entire network from scratch. Even if the hacker claims they deleted backups, the agency appears to have had an offline copy, otherwise things would have gotten really messy over the coming months in Romania. So it seems not all has been lost. I was worried about the societal implications of being unable…

This happened in a 50k people town where my father is from in 1982 with a BIG flood that destroyed the town land registry documents (among a lot of the town). Since he's a lawyer, had first hand experience and I was always curious I asked many things about this a while back. Basically, what happened is that they rebuilt it from proof of ownership and testimonies of the people. You can never get to 100% recovery like…

Happened here about 30 years ago with a fire in a council planning office. All building plans and records were lost. It was enormously useful because there was no way to prove that that house addition there wasn't approved or in any plans. Fans of Yes Minister will know the appropriate quote from Sir Humphrey.

Re: Hacker wipes Romania's land registry database

#343

Post by pseudohadamard »

locao wrote: post #311
alexpotato wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Basically, what happened is that they rebuilt it from proof of ownership and testimonies of the people In a similar vein, I was once curious how you would prove your identity if ALL of your relevant documents (passport, driver's license, birth certificate etc) were lost in some kind of cataclysm e.g. a house fire pre-digital etc Turns out there is actually a mechanism for this: - get multiple people to sign sworn a…

Sort of the plot of Banana Joe. Everytime I get stuck with some kind of circular bureaucracy I shout "it's Banana Joe all over again!" and no one understands.

Hadn't heard of that one before. It's a Bud Spencer film!

And now I also know that he has a law degree, has several registered patents, and was a certified airline pilot. Pretty impressive.

Re: Hacker wipes Romania's land registry database

#344

Post by jjmarr »

cataphract wrote: post #127
gchamonlive wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that everything will potentially be under dispute, since anyone can claim they purchased a patch of land whose registry was missed in the restoration

Don't know exactly on it works in Romania, but proving you purchased a patch of land is a different question -- for that you have the deed. You then submit the deed to the land registry. So this situation could at most result in the seller being able to sell the land more than once or disputes over the priority of sales over liens and other competing acts subject to registration.

The United States is rare. Most countries (seemingly including Romania[1]) have adopted either a cadastral/Torrens title system in which the land registry is definitive legal evidence of who owns a particular piece of land. If you purchased a piece of land and that wasn't recorded in the registry, you are SOL because registration is what conveys title.

The United States on the other hand has a massive title insurance industry, which wouldn't exist if this system was implemented. So you can make random handshake agreements all you'd like and sue over it.

[1] https://www.elra.eu/the-principles-underlying-the-land-regis...

Re: Hacker wipes Romania's land registry database

#345

Post by cortesoft »

ponector wrote: post #246
alexpotato wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Basically, what happened is that they rebuilt it from proof of ownership and testimonies of the people In a similar vein, I was once curious how you would prove your identity if ALL of your relevant documents (passport, driver's license, birth certificate etc) were lost in some kind of cataclysm e.g. a house fire pre-digital etc Turns out there is actually a mechanism for this: - get multiple people to sign sworn a…

At least you can restore it. Imagine all your devices are lost in a massive fire, is there a way to get back your apple account?

I have a 'bootstrap' system... I have recovery codes and a backup for critical things encrypted and stored in a public git repo I push to both gitlab and github. If I lose everything, I can use those recovery codes to access the things I need to recover my digital identity.

Re: Hacker wipes Romania's land registry database

#346

Post by tim-tday »

judemelancon wrote: post #276
SoftTalker wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are also physical markers in the ground at the corners of most properties. So if you had to, you could send a surveyor out to recertify boundaries. That would get very expensive quickly, however.

This is not true anywhere I've lived, and I'm curious where it is true.

This is true most places in the us. Have you looked? You often have to dig up the stake. It helps to have an idea of where it should be before you start digging.

Re: Hacker wipes Romania's land registry database

#347

Post by skipkey »

Lerc wrote: post #295
alexpotato wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Basically, what happened is that they rebuilt it from proof of ownership and testimonies of the people In a similar vein, I was once curious how you would prove your identity if ALL of your relevant documents (passport, driver's license, birth certificate etc) were lost in some kind of cataclysm e.g. a house fire pre-digital etc Turns out there is actually a mechanism for this: - get multiple people to sign sworn a…

I tend towards being cautious with my information which has led to beauricracies doubting my existence. I got my first passport at a formative period of my life (international travel does that). I looked nothing like the photo within aa year. It served as a passport until it expired but only created skeptisism as a photo ID. I don't know how to drive, so do not possess a driver's licence. I am in a 35+ year relations…

So for many years I only paid cash for everything, but I hit a point at which I wanted to start establishing credit. What I did was to open a secured credit card at my bank. They actually had me put it in a CD which was used to secure it. After I think 2 years of paying on time they removed the security requirement. I don’t know if that’s still a viable method but I used it in the early 2000s.

Re: Hacker wipes Romania's land registry database

#348

Post by ragall »

gchamonlive wrote: post #36
skinfaxi wrote: post #5

> Since the hack, officials restored their website and posted a message announcing they are rebuilding the agency's entire network from scratch. Even if the hacker claims they deleted backups, the agency appears to have had an offline copy, otherwise things would have gotten really messy over the coming months in Romania. So it seems not all has been lost. I was worried about the societal implications of being unable…

I'd bet money the offline copy is far from up-to-date, given the state of the network. It still has potential to be mayhem

Quite likely the opposite: a few weeks ago a ransomware attack halted ~100 hospitals' management systems in Romania, and the cybercrime defense unit just disconnected all hospitals and had the local admins rebuild from backups and paper trails. So I'm quite sure that all public administration IT admins have been running drills and probably have up-to-date backups.

Re: Hacker wipes Romania's land registry database

#349

Post by irjustin »

reaperducer wrote: post #340
irjustin wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> SSNs are not a "national ID" That's not what they are, but that's what they've defacto become. I hate it.

Is that still true? Except for certain industries where the government has a direct interest (banking, healthcare, real estate), I don't think anyone has asked for my SSN in at least a decade. It's not like the old days when you'd fork over your SSN to rent videos at Blockbuster.

> Except for certain industries where the government has a direct interest (banking, healthcare, real estate)

That's still a massive dependance on "ID" for SS...? Blockbuster tho.. phew it's been a while.

Re: Hacker wipes Romania's land registry database

#350

Post by ragall »

ExoticPearTree wrote: post #150
skinfaxi wrote: post #5

> Since the hack, officials restored their website and posted a message announcing they are rebuilding the agency's entire network from scratch. Even if the hacker claims they deleted backups, the agency appears to have had an offline copy, otherwise things would have gotten really messy over the coming months in Romania. So it seems not all has been lost. I was worried about the societal implications of being unable…

> I was worried about the societal implications of being unable to prove land ownership but it seems that may be avoided. You know, it's not like people would come and steal your land overnight because you can't provide proof of ownership.

After the tsunami that hit Thailand and wiped out many fishing villages on the Pacific coast, the people were evacuated but as soon as they returned, they found the local mafia occupying the land, and as they had no need and there was no land registry, they were forced to rebuy their land.
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