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China’s open-weights AI strategy is winning

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Re: China’s open-weights AI strategy is winning

#291

Post by tracker1 »

chermi wrote: post #211

It's basically American VCs vs the China the state. I'm not optimistic for the US at this point, given how much China cares about it and how much talent they have. And how much they're putting into hardware and the whole ecosystem. Meanwhile we have pro basketball players with no understanding of reality being celebrities for decrying data centers because...land?

I'm mostly OK with Data Centers.. my biggest issues are the tax breaks and the electricity usage should be funded by the data centers themselves. Giving 100% property tax breaks and preferred energy rates is kind of ridiculous in the context of serving the public/citizens. Most of the jobs are for only the construction and limited after.

Re: China’s open-weights AI strategy is winning

#292

Post by atishay811 »

overgard wrote: post #237

I do think open-weights models are going to "win" in the sense that they're probably going to be dominant when the hardware to run them becomes affordable. (which might be a while). Although I guess you could probably rent the GPU's yourself to hypothetically save on costs. (I'm a little skeptical -- I've heard of companies doing this and the inference bills are surprisingly high -- assuming the sources are correct.…

China is the factory of the world. They don't need software to win. Rather they prefer software is free and they can win in hardware. So if AI inference is free, they can put it in as many hardware components as possible and sell them in the market - think toys, cars, tools with chips manufactured in china optimized for the use case. In long term you tend to commoditize hardware. We have thousands of device types of cheap x86, and with linux/bsd software on it coming from china. Why do we think GPUs will be different.

Re: China’s open-weights AI strategy is winning

#293

Post by echelon »

kube-system wrote: post #278
overgard wrote: post #237

I do think open-weights models are going to "win" in the sense that they're probably going to be dominant when the hardware to run them becomes affordable. (which might be a while). Although I guess you could probably rent the GPU's yourself to hypothetically save on costs. (I'm a little skeptical -- I've heard of companies doing this and the inference bills are surprisingly high -- assuming the sources are correct.…

> I'm sort of baffled by what the entities that train the open-weights models get out of it though. Is it just a direct play to undercut the US providers because they view them as a threat? I just don't really understand the business model behind it. In China, it's because they are being heavily subsidized to do the research activity. It's not really complicated -- if you allocate public money for people do to a thin…

You could say the same thing about Linux in the 90's and 00's. And yet here we are.

Remember the Halloween papers?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween_documents

Re: China’s open-weights AI strategy is winning

#294

Post by Avicebron »

bluGill wrote: post #283
tracker1 wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think part of it is definitely to weaken US providers and the US economy as a whole. China has a completely different domestic economic structure and motivations from western cultures... it's probably closest to a fascist economy mixed with a Maoist cultural ideology behind it. There's definitely winners and losers and the state tends to have tight controls over everything though. I also think the restrictions on O…

Does it weaken the US though? It weakens the big providers but most of the economy is in companies buying and this helps them save money.

Isn't most of the economy riding on the stock of these handful of companies though?

Re: China’s open-weights AI strategy is winning

#295

Post by coliveira »

overgard wrote: post #237

I do think open-weights models are going to "win" in the sense that they're probably going to be dominant when the hardware to run them becomes affordable. (which might be a while). Although I guess you could probably rent the GPU's yourself to hypothetically save on costs. (I'm a little skeptical -- I've heard of companies doing this and the inference bills are surprisingly high -- assuming the sources are correct.…

Chinese companies are cut out of the market by the US gov restrictions, so making the models open is a survival tactic.

Re: China’s open-weights AI strategy is winning

#296

Post by syntaxing »

tyleo wrote: post #6

I’m suspicious of some quotes here, “80% of startups using Chinese models,” doesn’t seem quite right to me. I just interviewed at several startups and they were all using the US models. Maybe they have some minor use of Chinese models but the bread-and-butter of most of these businesses model use is the Claude and Codex subscriptions.

I don’t think they meant exclusively Chinese models. Many companies including the one I work for uses big US model for most of the work but data sensitive ones are on prem open source ones.

Re: China’s open-weights AI strategy is winning

#297

Post by Levitz »

kube-system wrote: post #278
overgard wrote: post #237

I do think open-weights models are going to "win" in the sense that they're probably going to be dominant when the hardware to run them becomes affordable. (which might be a while). Although I guess you could probably rent the GPU's yourself to hypothetically save on costs. (I'm a little skeptical -- I've heard of companies doing this and the inference bills are surprisingly high -- assuming the sources are correct.…

> I'm sort of baffled by what the entities that train the open-weights models get out of it though. Is it just a direct play to undercut the US providers because they view them as a threat? I just don't really understand the business model behind it. In China, it's because they are being heavily subsidized to do the research activity. It's not really complicated -- if you allocate public money for people do to a thin…

China is known to spread love and kindness through markets with no self-interest, after all.

Re: China’s open-weights AI strategy is winning

#298

Post by chasd00 »

overgard wrote: post #237

I do think open-weights models are going to "win" in the sense that they're probably going to be dominant when the hardware to run them becomes affordable. (which might be a while). Although I guess you could probably rent the GPU's yourself to hypothetically save on costs. (I'm a little skeptical -- I've heard of companies doing this and the inference bills are surprisingly high -- assuming the sources are correct.…

> I'm sort of baffled by what the entities that train the open-weights models get out of it though

if you do the training then you're in control of the output. For example, recommending your products/services or failing to mention your competitors. You could also automatically introduce backdoors into code deemed interesting, i'm sure all governments are very interested in having that influence.

Re: China’s open-weights AI strategy is winning

#299

Post by Aboutplants »

dwa3592 wrote: post #290

In the end its really VC money (US) versus State resources (China). In my personal opinion, building reliable LLMs is kind of a fundamental science problem which if done right has the potential to help everyone regardless of the background, so it should definitely be funded by states resources (taxes etc), which is what China is doing. In them doing so, the rest of the world also benefits, I think its a net win.

I always see comments like this, alluding to how China (the government) provides so much more assistance to industry than the US does but in reality that is not really that true. The government spend in the US on AI is much greater than government spend on AI from China

Re: China’s open-weights AI strategy is winning

#300

Post by ToucanLoucan »

jvanderbot wrote: post #170
ToucanLoucan wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh I don't think it's either of those things, I think it's good old fashioned Racism/Xenophobia. We did the same shit to Japan and Korea when they were coming up out of their respective post-war periods, and we still do, to a degree. With China's ruling party also being "communist" (in massive, massive air-quotes) it also lets political actors dust off the McCarthyism to boot. This is, to be clear, not meant as a rin…

So, there's no functional competition or great power struggle or corporate race here? Just racism against chinese people for being chinese? That is your claim specifically?

Oh there most certainly is a power struggle/corporate race, for sure. AND I don't think it's pure economics at all, when so much of the rhetoric around that struggle is framed so often with this "America has to defend itself," "China will kill us," "shoot all the communists," ooh-rah United States chest-pounding, etc., it's simply impossible to have that discussion be anything close to good-faith.

If you want my honest take, I think we're well into the beginnings of the downfall of America as the center of world economics, largely and wildly by it's own unnecessary actions, and soon, she will have to learn to be "just another country" as opposed to the central unified "norm" that pervades the world markets, and I'm not sure the U.S. is prepared for that. And I bring that up because I don't think American firms have ever had to contend with other nations being on a footing to, if push comes to shove, tell them to fuck off.

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